Unavoidable death

[Wraitheist]

My clvl 22 cleric died on dl 2250 a few minutes ago:

> You enter a maze of up staircases.
> Looks like any other level.
> It casts a nether bolt.
> You feel your life draining away!
> You die.

Didn't even get to move off of the stair case...that's frustrating...

[Rizwan]

That is true. There is enough avoidable death (aka death by stupidity) that unavoidable death just hurts. There was a thread around here somewhere that discussed just such an issue. I think giving the player an extra turn (by making stairs take 0 energy) was a good suggestion to eliminate this type of unavoidable death.

[Nick]

I think giving the player an extra turn (by making stairs take 0 energy) was a good suggestion to eliminate this type of unavoidable death.

The latest version of FAangband has this. I'll be interested to hear any comments - although I suspect it won't really be the sort of thing people notice.

[Remuz]

Dying on a single nether bolt means, in my opinion, that the character was too deep for his constitution. Now, many veteran players suggest to dive, then to carefully avoid threat.

Currently, this is not possible to dive, because one is not garanteed to play first when exiting stairs (at least in FA, not sure about other variants or Vanilla). In FA particularly, it seemed to me that the design was against rapid diving, hence the introduction of wilderness. Introducing 0-energy stairs would force the player to dive slowly at first, then allow him to go faster as soon as he gets into the Angband dungeon.

I am not saying that this is good or bad, I am just raising the point, as it seems to me that there are two antagonists designs going on here.

[Rizwan]

Dying on a single nether bolt means, in my opinion, that the character was too deep for his constitution. Now, many veteran players suggest to dive, then to carefully avoid threat.

Currently, this is not possible to dive, because one is not garanteed to play first when exiting stairs (at least in FA, not sure about other variants or Vanilla). In FA particularly, it seemed to me that the design was against rapid diving, hence the introduction of wilderness. Introducing 0-energy stairs would force the player to dive slowly at first, then allow him to go faster as soon as he gets into the Angband dungeon.

I am not saying that this is good or bad, I am just raising the point, as it seems to me that there are two antagonists designs going on here.

You are quite correct As for myself, the way I play by the time reach the level where creatures can nether bolt me, a single one does not kill me. Zero energy stairs wont do much for the slow ones like me but for those who want to dive it will probably be very welcome. So each type can play his own game and not be penalized unduly.

[Wraitheist]

I like the zero energy stairs idea. Most of my deaths are my own fault, but when something like this happens, I feel cheated.

[Bandobras]

The latest version of FAangband has this. I'll be interested to hear any comments - although I suspect it won't really be the sort of thing people notice.

How exactly have you done this? I'd swipe it for Un...

[Nick]

How exactly have you done this? I'd swipe it for Un...

Just remove the line in do_cmd_go_up/down that uses energy (p_ptr->energy_use += 100, or some such).

[Bandobras]

Just remove the line in do_cmd_go_up/down that uses energy (p_ptr->energy_use += 100, or some such).

What about the FORCE_SLEEP flag? Did you remove it? IIRC it causes some monsters to give you free turn when you enter a level. Is it still needed?

[Nick]

What about the FORCE_SLEEP flag? Did you remove it? IIRC it causes some monsters to give you free turn when you enter a level. Is it still needed?

I'm not sure. I didn't touch it, anyway.

[Big Al]

Near all monsters with a distance attack spell have FORCE_SLEEP. It makes them generated with 0-9 energy instead of 0-49.

I think that it makes more sense for the monsters to start out with slightly negative energy and keep the 100 energy to take the stairs, instead of removing energy from stair movement - otherwise no character has an excuse to die of starvation in the dungeon if they're patient enough to stair-scum for close by stairs up. And anything that encourages stair-scumming is bad.

[chem]

Heng/Entro, which has quite a few dumps on the ladder, makes unavoidable death a much more common occurrence. Specifically through a randomized energy use system (monsters, at the same speed as you, can get double moves on you quite often). I find that it spices up the game -- forces people to play more creatively or carefully.

[Psi]

Near all monsters with a distance attack spell have FORCE_SLEEP. It makes them generated with 0-9 energy instead of 0-49.

Ah! That explains why I now seem to get two moves before Death Quasits start flying towards me in FA. They have FORCE_SLEEP as well as the 0 enery stair taking. However hounds also have FORCE_SLEEP and in the past I've certainly been breathed to death on entering a level.

I would prefer to see taking the staircases taking time etc without the chance of an instakill, however this means you could basically rest in safety by going up and down stairs. Though I guess by stairscumming you could easily find a safe spot to rest anyway, so I guess this isn't too much of a drawback.

[daft]

I'm not the one who just lost a clvl 22 cleric so it's easy for me to say, "That's the way it goes, sometimes."

I've lost characters as they hopped off the stairs, only to be blasted by some unknown thing. I've learned to use it as a guide for subsequent characters. Dashing down stair after stair too soon is a gamble. Resistances are sometimes hard to find but I try to take time to find as much as I can before facing monsters that can take me out in one turn.

[Wraitheist]

To be fair, even if I had the chance to take a turn, I probably would have died anyway because my first move would have been to cast a detect spell of some kind. Since the unique was off-screen, he simply would have killed me on the next round.

I was diving quickly, since I'm intrigued by the fast divers who don't wait around for recommended resists and such, though I was killed by an element that I wouldn't have had resistances for anyway. The only thing that may have saved me was higher CON if I had stuck around to max my stats.

There is are some very interesting trade offs between fast diving and playing "safer".