Here's how I start gnome mages

[Monkey Face]

In my current character (Dunadan Mage) I was nexus swapped STR for WIS. Not quite as bad as INT for WIS but it made a Quarterstaff too heavy to wield (not that I stopped wielding Nar-i-vagil given the +4 INT, it just meant that melee was even less likely to happen) and it cancelled out all of the speed bonuses I had acquired. However, I didn't give up and now I'm back and forth between levels 97 and 98 just getting more experience so I have more mana and HP for the final fights (and I wouldn't object to a little pStun). So nexus swaps don't always mean instadeath, even if it is an important stat. It just means you need to be more careful.

[Derakon]

Question- would it be interesting if nexus could search your inventory and swap equipment? Would be really interesting if you were carrying something with aggravate. Or would this be just a pain if your speed ring or rPois ring were removed at the wrong time and you forgot to check your current resists.

There's too much potential for screwing over the player here. I can't carry any item that goes in the same slot as the gear that provides my only source of FA, say, for fear of spontaneously losing that ability.

[bio_hazard]

I don't know if this would totally solve the problem (if there is one), but what if nexus attacks stacked kind of like stun

First attack can only randomly teleport
You get the UNSTABLE status for X turns (probably long)
If hit again while UNSTABLE, then worse effects ( stat swap) are possible.

Question- would it be interesting if nexus could search your inventory and swap equipment? Would be really interesting if you were carrying something with aggravate. Or would this be just a pain if your speed ring or rPois ring were removed at the wrong time and you forgot to check your current resists.

[luneya]

The stat swap that triggered this conversation was caused by a vortex. I didn't take note of exactly where it happened, but it must have been a dungeon level in the upper thirties, since that character's death occurred at DL 41. This is exactly the point of the game where characters tend to be minmaxed the worst, and thus suffer worst from a stat-swap. Perhaps the simplest patch on the problem is to simply make it that nexus vortex attacks never cause stat swap? Any character not mostly through the stat-gain phase who fails to run away from nexus breathers worse than a vortex deserves what he gets.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Hey, take it easy. I'm not (trying to) attack anyone here. Like you said, I'm stating my opinion, and you're also free to state your opinion. Enough people state their opinions, and we get a general idea of what people think about a given idea and thus whether or not it should be changed. My arguments aren't meant to be logically rigorous, but rather explain why I think something is a good or bad idea.

What do you like about nexus stat swaps? Just that they're uncommonly lethal?

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be going after you or anything like that. Just didn't like it sounding like a fait accompli before there actually was any consensus.

What do I like about the swaps? Yes, that they are a lethal danger, but with low odds of occurring (much like the roulette when facing Kavlax). Not that I like them. I don't like gravity hounds, aether hounds, nether hounds, ethereal hounds.... but, I don't want to get rid of them. The hound packs have already been reduced enough, in my opinion, as to make these dangers manageable. I think the nexus swap danger from nexus hounds is just that, a manageable danger. Estie highlighted the problem when the swap happens due to a nexus vortex. What level do those start appearing? I was thinking of nexus hounds. However, the nexus vortex, that might be a different story.

[Derakon]

How many logical fallacies, presumptions, and assumptions are in that reasoning?! Your OPINION is that nexus swap is a dumb mechanic, makes the game not fun to play, and that only a very few people disagree with that opinion.

Well, without a survey I'm not sure how you have made so many assumptions and conclusions. While I usually agree with you, Derakon, on this one I am on the other side. I think nexus swap is just fine as it is.

Hey, take it easy. I'm not (trying to) attack anyone here. Like you said, I'm stating my opinion, and you're also free to state your opinion. Enough people state their opinions, and we get a general idea of what people think about a given idea and thus whether or not it should be changed. My arguments aren't meant to be logically rigorous, but rather explain why I think something is a good or bad idea.

What do you like about nexus stat swaps? Just that they're uncommonly lethal?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

If nexus vortex can ruin my character, it should give appropriate reward, xp/treasure to match. Actually doing that would lead to horrible gameplay where players start cloning pink v-s, but why exactly do you want a silly, common monster to be more dangerous than an epic ancient dragon ?

Ah, the light bulb finally goes on in my brain. All this time I've been thinking about those very dangerous nexus hounds, which I put on a par with gravity hounds until @ get's rNexus. Didn't even think about the pesky nexus vortex.

If my @ gets scrambled by nexus hounds, it serves me right. But from the lower level appearing nexus vortex, yeah, I'd be pissed off about that.

[Estie]

There are a few simple rules to obey when creating rpgs. Nexus swap breaks at least 2 of them:

1. there shall be no worse penalty than death
2. the risk shall match the reward

I dont like the nexus swap mechanic aestetically, but thats not really the issue is it. I ask that, rather than having my toon ruined beyond recognition, to an extent where starting a new character is the quicker way to kill Morgoth, I be given a merciful death in form of a 1-hit nuke.

If nexus vortex can ruin my character, it should give appropriate reward, xp/treasure to match. Actually doing that would lead to horrible gameplay where players start cloning pink v-s, but why exactly do you want a silly, common monster to be more dangerous than an epic ancient dragon ?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Thesis: the game should be fun to play. Consequence: the game should not put itself into a state that is not fun to play. Observation: very few people enjoy playing when their primary stat has been permanently nuked into oblivion.

So...conclusion: if your primary stat falls below 10, then you automatically die?

A "minor" impact like having your primary stat lowered by 3-6 points is manageable, but I suspect that fewer than 1 in 1000 players enjoy, say, playing a mage who is suddenly an incredibly wise drooling idiot. Especially when they realize that their only means of recovery are either a) drinking potions for ages to get back to where they were, or b) hoping for an incredibly lucky stat swap. Hence why I suggested the +3/-3 effect: it's big enough to be really noticeable, but it shouldn't be game-ruining.

For every way in which the game is made easier by elimination of a dumb mechanic, it can be made harder by introduction of an interesting one. People have been bemoaning the marshmallow-ification of Angband for decades now.

How many logical fallacies, presumptions, and assumptions are in that reasoning?! Your OPINION is that nexus swap is a dumb mechanic, makes the game not fun to play, and that only a very few people disagree with that opinion.

Well, without a survey I'm not sure how you have made so many assumptions and conclusions. While I usually agree with you, Derakon, on this one I am on the other side. I think nexus swap is just fine as it is.

[Nick]

I don't see why we couldn't keep the swap as is, but on each level gain a 50% chance to revert.

My favoured scheme is this, with 100% chance - and no effect on the swap from stat potions or Mushrooms of Vigor. So the effect is always curable - unless you are level 50, in which case it's only curable by maxing stats. As Derakon says, more game state needs to be recorded, but not much.

[bio_hazard]

The problem is what if you *like* the result of the swap, forget about it, come to depend on it, end up not maxing other stats by the final battle, and drink a potion of life in battle against Morgoth, thus breaking your stats instead of "fixing" it? Far fetched, but stranger things have happened.

If you make it to DL 99 without having maxed stats across the board, then you're probably OK with that sort of challenge.

[Derakon]

I guess that I have trouble fathoming how making dangerous monsters into mild annoyances helps the game. Will the tendency deepen? I dread the day @ plunges to DL 100 and finds a milquetoast Morgoth.

For every way in which the game is made easier by elimination of a dumb mechanic, it can be made harder by introduction of an interesting one. People have been bemoaning the marshmallow-ification of Angband for decades now.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

This looks like a great idea! It would make nexus hounds a mild annoyance alone, but potentially deadly in vaults or crowded levels.

I guess that I have trouble fathoming how making dangerous monsters into mild annoyances helps the game. Will the tendency deepen? I dread the day @ plunges to DL 100 and finds a milquetoast Morgoth.

[Bogatyr]

You could have mushrooms of vigor and/or potions of augmentation "fix" stat swaps. Perhaps also potions of *healing* and life.

The problem is what if you *like* the result of the swap, forget about it, come to depend on it, end up not maxing other stats by the final battle, and drink a potion of life in battle against Morgoth, thus breaking your stats instead of "fixing" it? Far fetched, but stranger things have happened.

[Egavactip]

You could have mushrooms of vigor and/or potions of augmentation "fix" stat swaps. Perhaps also potions of *healing* and life.