Whatever happened to 'restore artifact'?
Collapse
X
-
My argument is that disenchantment is actually a great strategic and tactical element in the game. I like it. It forces me to think about maintaining my storage (and it adds a whole lot more complexity/difficulty to the No Shops game mode, btw). I also don't see why we should be so attached to our equipment and shouldn't adapt it to the circumstances of the game as we do with all other things, with a little more depth than just "replace with something better". Not always we get to the end game with the gear we wished. We know this. So why can't we accept that the game is also constructed around the possibility of losing the gear we wish?
As far as "we" is concerned, what you get out of a game is not necessarily what others get out of a game, so please do not presume. Games in Angband should be lost, IMO, by bad decisions or by bad luck (i.e., dying in the game), but not by the game architecture. By that I mean that Angband forces players to discard artifacts as part of the game. Therefore players have to make decisions in which they will have to throw away artifacts that otherwise could have been used as replacements for damaged artifacts. The way Angband is now, a player can severely be screwed by having a key artifact (and we all know that some end up being crucial to winning) damaged beyond usefulness, with the only available substitutes already having been discarded and thus permanently lost. To me, that is neither poor decision-making by the player nor the fickle finger of fate so much as it is a weakness in the game system that can end up screwing players.
I think that a reasonable way can be found to fix this.
Another point I like to make is that the proposed alternative seems fine at first sight. But it really is dependent on your luck on finding such scrolls(?) that would allow you to recover your artefact. To that you would add the random element of it actually working. Which means this is just and simply a grind element that is being added to the game. Why should this be good? By the time you run into enough disenchants that warrant you wanting to use such a useful recovery scroll, that piece of equipment is probably in an already bad state enough you are being forced to running around on something else. How is that different from simply not having that ability to magically recover an artefact and just deal with the fact you have to use something different?Comment
-
Comment
-
The disenchantment problem is not a problem at all.
1) Once you aware of how bad it is, you start to think twice and avoid/deal with it.
2) Even if your lovely shield get badly disenchanted, there is always another shield. There are so many endgame quality shields around.
3) Disenchantment becomes common at higher levels, where you usually find one or two items which provides resistance to it, the balance is there.
C'mon guys, it is really a minor thing.Comment
-
It demonstrates that this is a hard game and that winning it is an achievement. It teaches the player to watch out for bad things happening. It encourages the player not to get all hung up on the exact plusses on their gear. It makes a good story afterwards.
That's just off the top of my head
In the early game, watch out for Mim and his kin. If I'm lucky enough to have rDis early, then I cheerfully take them on head-on. Otherwise, I still usually go after them, but from a distance or with gear that I don't care much about disenchanting. The only worry is if I've somehow found The Trident of Wrath or some other end-game quality weapon. I jealously guard these from disenchanters by swapping weapons or just avoiding the engagement. And disenchater bats or molds are fairly toothless. Sure they might get a -1 on something, but it's rare, especially for really good artifacts which have their own saving throw to resist.
In the late game, I work to plug that rDis hole, if not permanently, than at least with a swap like an Amulet of Weaponmastery, so that I can take on Saruman, Sauron, Nighcrawlers (or is it Nightwalkers, I swear, I never can remember that one).
The upshot for me is, disenchantment isn't broken, so let's not "fix" it.“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DeadComment
-
What? Why not? We're talking legendary artifacts here, the grand culmination of some craftsman's life's work. Why should we assume that there is an easy mechanism for them to be fixed? Fantasy abounds with stories of how hard it is to fix the broken legendary artifact. Science fiction analogously has the "ancient technology that still works but we don't know how, and we can't fix it if it breaks" type of thing. The fact that these items can't be replaced or repaired is a big part of what makes them special.Comment
-
Games in Angband should be lost, IMO, by bad decisions or by bad luck (i.e., dying in the game), but not by the game architecture. By that I mean that Angband forces players to discard artifacts as part of the game. Therefore players have to make decisions in which they will have to throw away artifacts that otherwise could have been used as replacements for damaged artifacts. The way Angband is now, a player can severely be screwed by having a key artifact (and we all know that some end up being crucial to winning) damaged beyond usefulness, with the only available substitutes already having been discarded and thus permanently lost.
I actually think disenchantment is a well-designed and well-balanced feature. There are a few early, avoidable monsters which use it, which gives the player warning what it does. Then there are tougher monsters like Mim and his sons who will definitely disenchant gear if you melee them; this is telling the player that this is a serious thing to watch out for. There are a couple of fairly early breathers (chaos and balance drakes) which warn that it's not only a problem for melee. Then in mid to late game there are enough monsters which disenchant that it becomes almost necessary.
So nobody is forced to discard artifacts. If you choose to melee a disenchanter or face a monster with disenchantment breath without having the resistance, you pay a penalty. That penalty is not very heavy for a single occurrence. It gets heavier for multiple occurrences. This seems to me pretty much in line with most of the mechanics in the game.
It is fundamental to the game that bad things can happen to your character, and a big part of the art of learning to play is to learn to avoid those things. The game becomes unfair and dispiriting if bad things (too often) happen in a way that the player has no control over. I believe currently the player has sufficient control over whether their gear gets disenchanted - but by all means prove me wrong.One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
-
Games in Angband should be lost, IMO, by bad decisions or by bad luck (i.e., dying in the game), but not by the game architecture. By that I mean that Angband forces players to discard artifacts as part of the game. Therefore players have to make decisions in which they will have to throw away artifacts that otherwise could have been used as replacements for damaged artifacts. The way Angband is now, a player can severely be screwed by having a key artifact (and we all know that some end up being crucial to winning) damaged beyond usefulness, with the only available substitutes already having been discarded and thus permanently lost. To me, that is neither poor decision-making by the player nor the fickle finger of fate so much as it is a weakness in the game system that can end up screwing players.“We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are DeadComment
-
It is not too hard to avoid getting ones artifacts disenchanted. It was also not too hard to win in the Zephyr-flood days. That doesnt mean either is a good feature.
The reason I dont like either is that they break the risk-reward balance. Yes, you can throw masses of monsters with the most agressive attack form that dont sleep etc etc at the player and not give him jack for defeating them, but ultimately the game is better if the reward - loot and XP - approximately matches the challenge.
Stupid low level bats becoming a major threat just because you found your first endgear artifact is similarly twisted, though of course nowhere near the same scale as hounds used to be. Someone above said the whole matter was irrelevant, and I tend to agree. I chimed in because aparently the mods found it relevant enough to make changes.Comment
-
It is fundamental to the game that bad things can happen to your character, and a big part of the art of learning to play is to learn to avoid those things. The game becomes unfair and dispiriting if bad things (too often) happen in a way that the player has no control over. I believe currently the player has sufficient control over whether their gear gets disenchanted - but by all means prove me wrong.Comment
-
On the contrary, it isn't game architecture that causes a player to have to discard damaged artifacts, rather it is entirely caused by bad decisions made by the player. If @ engages monsters that disenchant with gear that is *Important* to player and without rDis, then it's the player's fault if the gear gets messed up. Player could have made other decisions, like swapping in a less precious weapon or armor for the battle with a disenchanter, or could have avoided the engagement altogether.
You need to stop blaming the player for the game's problem.Comment
-
So currently the only things aside from artifacts that give RDisen are "Weaponmastery, Shields of Preservation, and a few high-end DSMs. We could think about introducing something else - maybe (like for RPois) a ring, starting at about dungeon level 50-60?One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
-
I hadn't thought of that, but it might be worth considering.Comment
-
Also I thought 4.0 lets you redefine home size via constants file now, doesn't it? So you can keep alot more arts at home in case one of the three monsters with disenchantment in the endgame biffs your favorite shiny thing?Last edited by debo; November 21, 2015, 06:52.Glaurung, Father of the Dragons says, 'You cannot avoid the ballyhack.'Comment
Comment