All Trampled Uniques Go to Heaven

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  • Rowan
    Adept
    • Sep 2014
    • 139

    All Trampled Uniques Go to Heaven

    Of course they don't. But where do they go?

    Just watched the Lernaean Hydra trample over Kavlax... but the many-headed doormat is still listed as Alive in my monster-knowledge. Is he really going to show up again, or is he gone forever? Am I cursed to see him listed as Alive just because I didn't do the deed?
  • Monkey Face
    Adept
    • Feb 2009
    • 244

    #2
    He'll be back (assuming you live long enough :-)

    Comment

    • Zikke
      Veteran
      • Jun 2008
      • 1069

      #3
      Originally posted by Rowan
      Of course they don't. But where do they go?

      Just watched the Lernaean Hydra trample over Kavlax... but the many-headed doormat is still listed as Alive in my monster-knowledge. Is he really going to show up again, or is he gone forever? Am I cursed to see him listed as Alive just because I didn't do the deed?
      It's as if he was never spawned, so he has a chance of showing up again at the same chance he always did.
      A(3.1.0b) CWS "Fyren_V" NEW L:50 DL:127 A++ R+++ Sp+ w:The Great Axe of Eonwe
      A/FA W H- D c-- !f PV+++ s? d P++ M+
      C- S+ I- !So B ac++ GHB? SQ? !RQ V F:

      Comment

      • Ingwe Ingweron
        Veteran
        • Jan 2009
        • 2129

        #4
        Originally posted by Rowan
        Of course they don't. But where do they go?

        Just watched the Lernaean Hydra trample over Kavlax... but the many-headed doormat is still listed as Alive in my monster-knowledge. Is he really going to show up again, or is he gone forever? Am I cursed to see him listed as Alive just because I didn't do the deed?
        Similar to if you use destruction to remove a unique, he has a chance to respawn.
        “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
        ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

        Comment

        • Timo Pietilä
          Prophet
          • Apr 2007
          • 4096

          #5
          Originally posted by Rowan
          Of course they don't. But where do they go?

          Just watched the Lernaean Hydra trample over Kavlax... but the many-headed doormat is still listed as Alive in my monster-knowledge. Is he really going to show up again, or is he gone forever? Am I cursed to see him listed as Alive just because I didn't do the deed?
          Trampled is not dead, just deleted. Same with earthquake "embedded in stone" and destruction. Those don't kill the unique, just remove it from level.

          There is a rule in angband that monsters can't kill uniques.

          That rule applies to all indirect magic too, you can't get Bullroarer killed by Dracolich nether breath even that it does way more damage than it has. It just leaves Bullroarer at one point of HP.

          I once watched one of the Ringwraiths getting pummeled by hounds it summoned. I just waited for fun, I had immunity and glyph, it didn't. It just didn't die, so I poked it to death after it got boring.

          Comment

          • Rowan
            Adept
            • Sep 2014
            • 139

            #6
            Thanks! Yeah he ended up appearing again a couple of levels later. After killing the Lernaean, Kavlax was a piece of cake- or more a little cookie.

            Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
            I once watched one of the Ringwraiths getting pummeled by hounds it summoned. I just waited for fun, I had immunity and glyph, it didn't. It just didn't die, so I poked it to death after it got boring.
            Ha! That sounds like fun! I never seem to have great success with my glyphs; monsters always seem to break them within a couple of turns.

            Comment

            • brbrbr
              Adept
              • Sep 2015
              • 110

              #7
              Originally posted by Rowan
              Thanks! Yeah he ended up appearing again a couple of levels later. After killing the Lernaean, Kavlax was a piece of cake- or more a little cookie.
              Ha! That sounds like fun! I never seem to have great success with my glyphs; monsters always seem to break them within a couple of turns.
              Glyphs have been very good for me. Even Morgoth didn't touch them for 4-8 rounds of melee. Depends on the monster, probably.

              How about following approach: The less uniques you kill, the less is the chance that strong ones will be summoned by. So do not fight them at all.
              If you kill everybody but Tarrasque - only Tarrasque will be summoned!

              Comment

              • Derakon
                Prophet
                • Dec 2009
                • 9022

                #8
                Originally posted by brbrbr
                Glyphs have been very good for me. Even Morgoth didn't touch them for 4-8 rounds of melee. Depends on the monster, probably.

                How about following approach: The less uniques you kill, the less is the chance that strong ones will be summoned by. So do not fight them at all.
                If you kill everybody but Tarrasque - only Tarrasque will be summoned!
                On the other hand, if the Tarrasque gets summoned and then you teleport it away, then it can't be summoned again because it's already on the current dungeon level. Only monsters that "don't exist yet" can be summoned.

                Comment

                • Bowman
                  Apprentice
                  • Oct 2015
                  • 60

                  #9
                  I try to kill whichever uniques I can, because the less often enemies can use summon uniques, the more often I can blow away summons with banish/mass banish instead of needing to do destruction or teleport other games. Plus, man, I just like killing uniques

                  On the topic of trampling uniques, though, what determines which uniques can be trampled? I'd always guessed that it was driven by level, but my last character had a couple of experiences that refuted that. Namely, Maeglin (level 81) couldn't trample Glaurang (level 70), and conversely, Atlas (level 76) was able to trample Maeglin. Is it just something like h's can't trample D's while P's can trample h's?

                  Comment

                  • Timo Pietilä
                    Prophet
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 4096

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Derakon
                    On the other hand, if the Tarrasque gets summoned and then you teleport it away, then it can't be summoned again because it's already on the current dungeon level. Only monsters that "don't exist yet" can be summoned.
                    I wonder if you could add a monster spell which brings monsters that are in the level into combat. "summon nearby" or something like that.

                    That could make summoners really dangerous when there is a vault nearby though.

                    Comment

                    • Timo Pietilä
                      Prophet
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 4096

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bowman
                      On the topic of trampling uniques, though, what determines which uniques can be trampled? I'd always guessed that it was driven by level, but my last character had a couple of experiences that refuted that. Namely, Maeglin (level 81) couldn't trample Glaurang (level 70), and conversely, Atlas (level 76) was able to trample Maeglin. Is it just something like h's can't trample D's while P's can trample h's?
                      Maeglin can't trample anything, but can move weaker monster out of its way (swap places as movement).

                      Comment

                      • Nick
                        Vanilla maintainer
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9638

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                        I wonder if you could add a monster spell which brings monsters that are in the level into combat. "summon nearby" or something like that.

                        That could make summoners really dangerous when there is a vault nearby though.
                        We had a comp a while ago with 3.5.1 modified by fizzix so that summoning was replaced with this. ISTR it worked OK, and the code is still set up so that this can be easily added either instead of or as well as regular summoning.
                        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                        Comment

                        • Bowman
                          Apprentice
                          • Oct 2015
                          • 60

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                          Maeglin can't trample anything, but can move weaker monster out of its way (swap places as movement).
                          Ah, sorry, you're right. I meant that Maeglin couldn't push past Glaurang, but he got trampled by Atlas. Still the same question of what determines "weaker onsters".

                          Comment

                          • Derakon
                            Prophet
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 9022

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Bowman
                            Ah, sorry, you're right. I meant that Maeglin couldn't push past Glaurang, but he got trampled by Atlas. Still the same question of what determines "weaker onsters".
                            This is determined by the "compare_monsters" function, which simply compares the amount of experience the monster is worth. Evidently Maeglin is undervalued in terms of experience reward. (Or Atlas and Glaurung are overvalued).
                            Last edited by Derakon; November 27, 2015, 20:55.

                            Comment

                            • Bowman
                              Apprentice
                              • Oct 2015
                              • 60

                              #15
                              Oh, that explains it. Thanks!

                              Atlas being worth more than Maeglin, I can understand, but Glaurung is definitely overvalued

                              Comment

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