Mixed-blessing items

[Atarlost]

So for a human potions of poison are renamed potions of heal Kobold and for a kobold they're named potions of heal Human. What does this actually add to gameplay?

[Fede]

So for a human potions of poison are renamed potions of heal Kobold and for a kobold they're named potions of heal Human. What does this actually add to gameplay?

Actually, I'm not suggesting anything like that. I simply stated that even in LotR the same potions heal everyone, so why make things more complex than what they already are?

[Djabanete]

So for a human potions of poison are renamed potions of heal Kobold and for a kobold they're named potions of heal Human. What does this actually add to gameplay?

Exactly. Although I think your quotation of Fede confused the issue; Garrie is the one who brought up this idea.

The trick is to make consumables situationally useful, and not useful only for certain races.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Atarlost]

Sorry. I kind of siezed upon "Then of course this doesn't mean it has to be like that in Angband." I interpreted that as saying the opposite of what you meant.

[Garrie]

How many times do people have to win before they start noticing TMJ anyway?
The only reason I know it's a problem is because of seeing so many posts here and on rgra about it.

Although, I do like mixed blessing approach rather than outright sword (-4,-5) {cursed} with no real reason *why* it's cursed.

[Garrie]

So for a human potions of poison are renamed potions of heal Kobold and for a kobold they're named potions of heal Human. What does this actually add to gameplay?

actually, for Kobold poison just becomes another flavour of Slime Mould Juice

[Atarlost]

actually, for Kobold poison just becomes another flavour of Slime Mould Juice

Blindness then, or sleep.

[Elsairon]

I'm for more randomization. Perhaps a few strains of mushrooms that change from game to game, along with the standard ones. Some potentially good or bad depending on the mix of effects.

Items of all types that have random abilities drawn from a larger pool of effects, perhaps sorted out between different item types in the beginning of the game. For example, a bonus that appears on shoes in one game might appear on shields in another, etc. Increased variety and gives a reason to be interested in every item until the late game where all types are found.

[ekolis]

Not to mention adjusting the item distributions so, for instance, the first rings you find aren't ALWAYS aggravation or stupidity, and the first wands you find aren't ALWAYS magic missile or wonder :P

[Rizwan]

As I've mentioned before, I'm reordering the object list, and alongside this adding a few new items and removing a few others. For example, I am changing the mushroom effects so they are mixed-blessing and a little odd (as it has been pointed out, the purpose of mushrooms is pretty much entirely flavour, so they might as well be interesting.)

Anyway, I would like to remove entirely-bad stuff from the object list and instead have some mixed-blessing items that might plausibly be used. This especially applies when it comes to rings and amulets.

Mixed-blessing items don't have to be made up of already-existing item abilities, but could have new ones. I don't need especially many, just a few. More ideas for consumables (potions/scrolls/staffs/mushrooms) would also be nice, but not essential.

Suggestions?

I have been following this post in the hopes that someone will say something to make me understand the situation better but so far its confusion city. So let me see if I have this right.
Some entirely bad item are going to be replaced by some items that give mixed effects while leaving the entirely good items alone. So that we will have good items and mixed items and no bad items?

So what will make me use the mixed items over the good items?

Maybe its just because I play a conservative game but I see no reason to use the mixed stuff (once identified) when I have only good stuff at my disposal.

Now if you remove the good stuff entirely thats another matter. Then even someone like me will have to use the mixed stuff as there is no alternative.

Or maybe have some stuff in the mixed section that has no alternative in the good section but that would be like a subset of the above but it might still make even a conservative player think about using such an item.

So which is it going to be

[Porran]

A few ideas

ToME has an item which might be adapted: the Anchor of Space-Time. It's a tool in that game, IIRC, but could easily be rethemed into jewellery. Its effect is to prevent all teleportation (player and monster) of all types - so while you can't phase/tele(level)?, neither can thieves disappear with your stuff or Tengu "command you to return".

Other ideas for mixed blessing effects:

Equipment of Rage: permanent Berserk
Equipment of Sanctity: permanent Bless, with some sort of drawback (curses itself and flips + to -?) if you kill a good creature
Equipment of Greed: detects treasure but won't let you leave level without getting it all
Consumable of Violent Restoration: as Restoration but damages you in proportion to amount that needed restoring; available much earlier
Consumable of Fiery (or other damage type) Aura: for a duration, damages each monster in melee with you each turn...and items on each square around you too
Scroll of Risky Acquisition: Creates an item of guaranteed quality - and a suitably quality (read: potentially out of depth) monster to carry it - could potentially replace both Summon and Acquisition

[zaimoni]

I have been following this post in the hopes that someone will say something to make me understand the situation better but so far its confusion city. So let me see if I have this right.
Some entirely bad item are going to be replaced by some items that give mixed effects while leaving the entirely good items alone. So that we will have good items and mixed items and no bad items?

So what will make me use the mixed items over the good items?

They're for character builds where the bad is irrelevant or useful. Ideally, the bad won't be completely overwhelming. (E.g., currently the Boots of Wormtongue are excellent for melee-incompetent characters. If you already use a light crossbow on monsters in melee range, that huge minus to damage isn't a big deal; the speed and steath bonuses will matter more.)

More concretely, since I play with smart_ai on a curse that confers Vulnerability to Fear would actually be useful at certain DL's. (At least, while the ai isn't all there yet.)

[takkaria]

I have been following this post in the hopes that someone will say something to make me understand the situation better but so far its confusion city. So let me see if I have this right.
Some entirely bad item are going to be replaced by some items that give mixed effects while leaving the entirely good items alone. So that we will have good items and mixed items and no bad items?

So what will make me use the mixed items over the good items?

1. You find the mixed items before the good items.
2. The mixed items provide something that the good items don't. (e.g. a mushroom which gives temporary high resistances.)

[Lykourgos]

How about items that are moderately common and give resistances absolutely necessary to their depth, but have debilitating stat disadvantages?

For instance, a ring with -5 con and -5 charisma, native to depth 1000, that gives free action and isn't hard to find, or a shield [-50] that gives rNether native to depth 2750 or so.

[Garrie]

How about items that are moderately common and give resistances absolutely necessary to their depth, but have debilitating stat disadvantages?

For instance, a ring with -5 con and -5 charisma, native to depth 1000, that gives free action and isn't hard to find, or a shield [-50] that gives rNether native to depth 2750 or so.

A ring/headwear of SI that negates infravision? infravision is helpful in rooms that aren't lit yet, but SI is essential once powerful G's etc. start showing up.
Slippers of stealth... nil/negative AC but very low weight.
Does Dwarven Armour have a negative stealth modifier?
Do Bucklander slings exist in V - maybe they should cause increased food consumption because we all know what kind of appetites hobbits have!

Slays that aggrevate the target monster only

Any really "really good" (fantasy) heavy x-bow should be like Detritus the Troll carrying his ballista... fine as long as you don't want to melee. So a Heavy X-Bow that weighs a heap, has x15 damage or something rediculous, but a -50 to hit for melee.