Feature request - damage information per shot/round for launchers

[Derakon]

Wouldn't that involve getting rid of the different types of ammo such as mithril bolts compared to normal ones?

You can still have different types, but they wouldn't deal different amounts of damage. Mithril arrows could be more durable than regular ones, though.

Also why would the to-hit damage bonus be multiplied for ranged attacks when it is added for melee attacks? I think it would be better to calculate them both in the same way.

Because the launcher multiplier acts as a source of "extra blows" in missile combat without actually requiring you to shoot multiple arrows. It's actually a pretty clever way to make ranged and melee do roughly comparable damage without making the interface for ranged be horribly tedious (and without doing away with ammo altogether).

If you wanted to keep the power multiplier make it:

Launcher damage bonus + ammo dice roll * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier)

Remove the ammo dice roll and you have my suggestion.

If you're really set on having damage dice, there's no reason you couldn't attach dice to the launchers. Then you could have standard Longbows (1d6, x3) or Longbows of Slaying (1d8, x3) or Longbows of Extra Power (1d6, x4), et cetera.

[TJS]

You can still have different types, but they wouldn't deal different amounts of damage. Mithril arrows could be more durable than regular ones, though.

I quite like finding better ammo types in the dungeon than the ones you can buy in the store. It's quite exciting finding your first seeker arrows for example. Extra durability is pretty unexciting, especially as they'll do the exact same damage as the next stack you will pick up anyway, so why would you care that they are more durable?

Having dice on ammo is not part of what makes it complex IMO.

Because the launcher multiplier acts as a source of "extra blows" in missile combat without actually requiring you to shoot multiple arrows.

That sort of makes sense, but then we have extra shots as well. Perhaps do away with the latter instead? That sounds like a better idea all round.

Remove the ammo dice roll and you have my suggestion.

Your suggestion multiplies the start damage and mine adds it:

Mine:

Launcher damage bonus + ammo dice roll * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier)

Yours:

(damage bonus on launcher) * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier if any)

If you're really set on having damage dice, there's no reason you couldn't attach dice to the launchers. Then you could have standard Longbows (1d6, x3) or Longbows of Slaying (1d8, x3) or Longbows of Extra Power (1d6, x4), et cetera.

The reason I like dice on ammo is because it makes finding different stacks of ammo fun. Sticking it all on the launcher makes different types pretty pointless (other than the slays).

It also lets them work in a similar way to melee.

[Bogatyr]

You can see the store contents from the "~" menu, but I don't think you can actually inspect the contents (e.g. the ammo for its damage) without actually being present in the store.

I verified it before posting, it's just like being in the store just without being able to buy, the "x" command to inspect works fine. I do this all the time, too, with spell books when I'm in the dungeon to remember which spells and what levels they are in the upcoming spell books.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I verified it before posting, it's just like being in the store just without being able to buy, the "x" command to inspect works fine. I do this all the time, too, with spell books when I'm in the dungeon to remember which spells and what levels they are in the upcoming spell books.

Not in OSX, at least. ~, g, will allow you to see the former contents of the general store, but x does nothing. No way to examine the specifics of the contents.

Also even if x would work, for your spell books example it wouldn't give you the spells and levels, that would be "b"rowse, which you also cannot do remotely in OSX. Can you actually e'x'amine and 'b'rowse the store contents remotely in Windows or Linux?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

I don't think the standard ammo is giving you the information you want, that was exactly my point. In the example the heavy xbow does worse with standard ammo. But it does better with ego ammo and probably with magic ammo as well. So whether it is worthwhile to carry around with you depends on whether you think you will find nice ammo for it, are willing to wait for it to drop and then carry it around with you.
And these decision depend on you general play style and the type of char you rolled. If you use a lot of launcher attacks then at least in the early and mid game you will mostly use unenchanted ammo. If you only carry a launcher for a few special occasions you will probably use ego ammo only in these situations.

Comparing for example a shortbow 2x (+10,+10) with a heavy xbow x4 (+2,+3) is much more tricky because the result depends on the ammo you have available. ...

I still say that having the level playing field comparison is the easiest and most helpful indication.

In your example, using normal ammo:

Shortbow x2 (+10,+10) = (2.5+10)*2*1=25
Xbow x4 (+2,+3) = (3+3)*4*1=24

At a glance I can see the crossbow will be better in the longterm -- all other things being equal -- once I read a single Enchant Weapon to Damage scroll on it. So, if @ is not a ranger, and if weight isn't a problem, and if I don't think I'll find a better launcher in the near future, and if I think appropriate bolts will be plentiful, and if I feel like lugging the thing back to town or using up an inventory slot, then I'll keep the crossbow.

[Derakon]

I quite like finding better ammo types in the dungeon than the ones you can buy in the store. It's quite exciting finding your first seeker arrows for example. Extra durability is pretty unexciting, especially as they'll do the exact same damage as the next stack you will pick up anyway, so why would you care that they are more durable?

Well, this is fair. The main thing is to avoid having pluses on the ammo; that makes everything just way more complicated than it needs to be.

That sort of makes sense, but then we have extra shots as well. Perhaps do away with the latter instead? That sounds like a better idea all round.

I can definitely get behind replacing +shots with +power. Giving ranges +1 power every 15 levels would be a much smoother progression than giving them +1 shot every 20 levels, too. And it's more obvious that you deal more damage, because the damage is directly visible when you shoot things.

Your suggestion multiplies the start damage and mine adds it:

Oh, right, you're right. Multiplying the start damage is important for replicating the "multiplier = extra blows" concept, though, so I prefer my version.

[Carnivean]

In reality (I know...) missile weapons do damage based on how accurate they are. If you hit an arm or a leg it does a smaller amount of damage than if you hit the torso or head. In the case of armoured combatants, unless the missile are strong enough and travelling fast enough, it probably won't do any damage.

Bows have not greatly strong missiles, and with weaker bows they can't penetrate. The upside is that a bow can be very accurate with a trained archer, and with training reloading can be very minimal. This is reflected in game by rangers gaining an extra shot with a certain level of experience. Bows with a heavier draw are harder to fire, but capable of greater damage.

Crossbows have strong missile and great armour penetration, but they have woeful accuracy and long reload times.

A feature of missile combat that bugs me is that mages are capable of doing heavy ranged combat damage. Mages are supposed to be inept at physical combat, yet they are reasonably competent at archery, which requires significant training.

With those in mind, I'd like to propose a completely different system. I'd start by making each weapon have a damage range from 1 to the maximum, ie 1dx. The player makes an accuracy roll, and their after modifier score becomes the percentage of the maximum damage. The game does an armour check vs the damage for armoured combatants. If the damage is less than the armour, then no damage or diminished damage is sustained. If it's greater, then the full damage is recorded. After the hit is recorded, the slays and brands are applied to the damage.

Classes with high accuracy (rangers, fighters) will score more damage due to more their proficiency. Classes with low accuracy will be far less effective, though may still get lucky shots.

Missiles could get accuracy bonuses for being well made (straighter, better fletchings for stability, etc) as well as magical bonuses including big bonuses for seeker arrows. Stronger missiles, such as mithril, could modify the check vs armour.

Crossbows would have high damage ratings, but low accuracy ratings, but metal bolts would be good against armour. They'd be maximum 1 shot per round, but be powerful enough to make up for it. In real life they're no match for a good bow and archer for damage output, so extra shots with bows would eventually be better for rangers and fighters, but the less skilled classes would still find them useful.

If the currently ranged formulas are opaque and contain hacks to balance them, why stay with them?

[MattB]

Not in OSX, at least. ~, g, will allow you to see the former contents of the general store, but x does nothing. No way to examine the specifics of the contents.

Also even if x would work, for your spell books example it wouldn't give you the spells and levels, that would be "b"rowse, which you also cannot do remotely in OSX. Can you actually e'x'amine and 'b'rowse the store contents remotely in Windows or Linux?

Have you tried the 'l'ook command?
That works in Windows.
And you can see the contents of books in shops by 'l'ooking at them as well (although I think that might be newish??)

[Bogatyr]

Have you tried the 'l'ook command?
That works in Windows.
And you can see the contents of books in shops by 'l'ooking at them as well (although I think that might be newish??)

I verified it *on OS X*. I just did again (on OS X). Do you want a screenshot with the apple in the upper left hand corner? :P

Version 3.5.1. Oh and I (priest) just e(x)amined a prayer book in the temple and got the list of prayers just like browse, just like how my mage e(x)amines spell books in the magic store from the dungeon to see the list of spells and levels.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Have you tried the 'l'ook command?
That works in Windows.
And you can see the contents of books in shops by 'l'ooking at them as well (although I think that might be newish??)

'l'ook works! And looking twice at a book gives the spells within. 'x' does not work for me in OSX (Angband 4.0.1), but 'l'ook does the trick. (Maybe Bogatyr, you're using the rouge keyset?) In any event, this makes life a little easier. Thank you, MattB and Bogatyr!

How many years have I been playing and not known how to do that?!

[Bogatyr]

'l'ook works! And looking twice at a book gives the spells within. 'x' does not work for me in OSX (Angband 4.0.1), but 'l'ook does the trick. (Maybe Bogatyr, you're using the rouge keyset?) In any event, this makes life a little easier. Thank you, MattB and Bogatyr!

How many years have I been playing and not known how to do that?!

Yes I always play with the rogue-like key set.

[TJS]

Well, this is fair. The main thing is to avoid having pluses on the ammo; that makes everything just way more complicated than it needs to be.

You could still have to-hit on the ammo without complicating the damage formula, but I think getting rid of both would simplify things nicely.

I can definitely get behind replacing +shots with +power. Giving ranges +1 power every 15 levels would be a much smoother progression than giving them +1 shot every 20 levels, too. And it's more obvious that you deal more damage, because the damage is directly visible when you shoot things.

Extra shots are very boring to use. I've had launchers that do a lot more damage per turn by using multiple shots and they get discarded straight away due to the hassle. I might keep one around for the final fight if I can be bothered.

Oh, right, you're right. Multiplying the start damage is important for replicating the "multiplier = extra blows" concept, though, so I prefer my version.

Since you explain it like that I understand the idea much better, like melee weapons of extra attacks. So we'd be looking at something like:

(Launcher damage bonus + ammo dice roll) * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier)

Of course now I've read Carnivean's post about shot accuracy and am thinking about completely new formulas involving taking that into account too

Mind you that can probably be saved for the fateful day when AC is split into evasion and absorption (4.3?).

[luneya]

Yeah, extra shots is confusing. It would be easier to use if it just fired multiple arrows in succession like a melee multiple attack, only aborting on the fractional turn if you kill your target or run out of arrows.

[Timo Pietilä]

Yeah, extra shots is confusing. It would be easier to use if it just fired multiple arrows in succession like a melee

Easier to understand, maybe, but not easier to use. Every shot individually gives you greater control over what is happening, so that's easier to use.

[Carnivean]

Easier to understand, maybe, but not easier to use. Every shot individually gives you greater control over what is happening, so that's easier to use.

Why is melee not like this?