Feature request - damage information per shot/round for launchers

[TJS]

I always find it quite difficult to compare damage from launchers since you have to equip them and then choose ammo and even then it isn't really all that clear. Normally I just guess and leave it at that.

It would be good to have a damage estimate from just inspecting the item, something like:

It can be fired twice per round with an average base damage of 100 with an extra 3 damage per extra point of bonus to-damage. Slays add an average 30 base damage and *slays* 50 for each extra average point of dice damage above the standard ammo.

In a perfect world it would be great to pull up a comparison table for all inventory and home launchers with different ammo etc. but that is probably going a bit too far.

[Carnivean]

Surely inspecting the ammo would show the damage with the current launcher, rather than the game guessing which ammo you want to use or offering generic information.

[TJS]

Surely inspecting the ammo would show the damage with the current launcher, rather than the game guessing which ammo you want to use or offering generic information.

Well then you've got to equip each launcher and then inspect every different type of ammo you've got with it. With say three launchers and 4 types of ammo it is a bit of a faff.

Plus if you're only holding bolts because you have a crossbow and then find a good bow then you can't compare the two launchers at all since you have no arrows to inspect.

[fizzix]

The main problem is how best to convey the information in a succinct way. I've thought about it for a while and don't really have a good feeling for how best to do it. Perhaps though we should be thinking ahead on this. Maybe Nick has some simplifications planned for range combat (like putting all to-dam on arrows on all to-hit on bows or something)

[Derakon]

The main problem is how best to convey the information in a succinct way. I've thought about it for a while and don't really have a good feeling for how best to do it. Perhaps though we should be thinking ahead on this. Maybe Nick has some simplifications planned for range combat (like putting all to-dam on arrows on all to-hit on bows or something)

Maybe the way to do this here is to compare launchers using 1d1 (+0, +0) missiles, and then say "for each +1 damage on ammo you get +N damage per shot; for an x2 slay you get +N damage, for an x3 slay you get etc. etc. etc.".

I don't think there's a way to give a perfectly satisfactory solution here; the best we can do is answer some broadly-applicable hypotheticals.

[tumbleweed]

- inspect launcher
- receive list of damage stats for all related ammo in quiver

[Ingwe Ingweron]

- inspect launcher
- receive list of damage stats for all related ammo in quiver

The point is, you need to know damage stats for ammo NOT in the quiver. I used to carry around a single basic shot, arrow, and bolt, (inscribed !* so I wouldn't ever shoot them) just so I could compare any launcher I came across.

Similar to Derakon's proposal, I'd suggest having the basic comparison for the three ammo types immediately upon inspection of the launcher, regardless of whether @ is carrying such ammo.

It's not a perfect solution (especially for a ranger, who needs to calculate the effect of the additional shot with a bow at CL 20 and CL 40 to know whether to store a certain bow for future use as compared to some other launcher), but it's a good start.

[Bogatyr]

Well it's a bit clunky but you can always inspect the contents of the general store from anywhere via the "~" (display current knowledge) without having to carry "dummy" ammo for this purpose. They always have basic bolts, arrow, and shots.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Well it's a bit clunky but you can always inspect the contents of the general store from anywhere via the "~" (display current knowledge) without having to carry "dummy" ammo for this purpose. They always have basic bolts, arrow, and shots.

You can see the store contents from the "~" menu, but I don't think you can actually inspect the contents (e.g. the ammo for its damage) without actually being present in the store.

[quarague]

Just looking at the damage for a base ammo with no enchants is unfortunately not going to give you the information you actually want. Different launchers have different multipliers, so the extra damage you get from say +5 damage ammo versus unenchanted ammo gets multiplied by anything from 2 for most slings to 4 for heavy xbows, more for some ego weapons/ uniques.
Comparing different launchers that use the same damage type is relatively straight forward, equipment them and then inspect the ammo you intend to shoot with it.
Comparing for example a shortbow 2x (+10,+10) with a heavy xbow x4 (+2,+3) is much more tricky because the result depends on the ammo you have available. If you only use unenchanted ammo the shortbow will win. With ego ammo the xbow will be better but of course that is only relevant if you actually find suitable ego ammo.
So essentially the trade off when contemplating a launcher with different ammo has no easy solutions. The rule of thumb is prioritize (in that order)
1) number of shots per turn
2) damage multiplier
3) added damage
But if you switch launchers the new one will only be actually better once you found a supply of suitable ammo for it.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

...Comparing for example a shortbow 2x (+10,+10) with a heavy xbow x4 (+2,+3) is much more tricky because the result depends on the ammo you have available...

While that is true at that specific moment, I think the point is being able to evaluate whether to lug a launcher out of the dungeon or leave it on the floor. Having a comparison of standard ammo get's you the information you need to make that decision (apart from the ranger extra shot before the ranger reaches level 40). Sure, @ might not have the ammo for the crossbow right now and so currently is better off shooting with the shortbow. But, knowing the crossbow's relative value with standard ammo, @ can take it home and store it while keeping an eye out for suitable ammunition.

[TJS]

I think half the issue is just how complicated ranged calculations are. If it is too opaque and complex to actually allow useful information to be displayed about a launcher to the player then I think there's definitely a problem that needs addressing.

Is something like shooting power actually needed? What does it add to the game?

Perhaps a simplification could be along the lines of:

Remove shooting power altogether
Adjust to-dam value on launcher to compensate
Remove to-dam on ammo
Slays only work on the damage dice only (this might already be the case - I've never quite figured out exactly how the ranged calculation works)
Adjust damage dice of ammo to compensate

I personally wouldn't mind getting rid of extra shots as well (essentially doubling or tripling shooting speed for no apparent reason seems completely odd to me), but I think that's another issue altogether.

[quarague]

While that is true at that specific moment, I think the point is being able to evaluate whether to lug a launcher out of the dungeon or leave it on the floor. Having a comparison of standard ammo get's you the information you need to make that decision.

I don't think the standard ammo is giving you the information you want, that was exactly my point. In the example the heavy xbow does worse with standard ammo. But it does better with ego ammo and probably with magic ammo as well. So whether it is worthwhile to carry around with you depends on whether you think you will find nice ammo for it, are willing to wait for it to drop and then carry it around with you.
And these decision depend on you general play style and the type of char you rolled. If you use a lot of launcher attacks then at least in the early and mid game you will mostly use unenchanted ammo. If you only carry a launcher for a few special occasions you will probably use ego ammo only in these situations.

[Derakon]

I think half the issue is just how complicated ranged calculations are. If it is too opaque and complex to actually allow useful information to be displayed about a launcher to the player then I think there's definitely a problem that needs addressing.

...

If we're going to simplify ammo damage calculations, then the way to go is to probably derive all damage except slays from the launcher, and then have ammo that is only e.g. "Arrow" or "Bolt of Acid". Honestly in practice I tend to sort my ammo into "generic" and "branded" piles anyway; the pluses on the ammo do not really affect my decision-making process unless I'm really relying heavily on my launcher.

Then your damage is given as (damage bonus on launcher) * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier if any), and you can readily compare launchers of different types because the "outside damage influence" from the ammo is much more narrowly-defined.

[TJS]

If we're going to simplify ammo damage calculations, then the way to go is to probably derive all damage except slays from the launcher, and then have ammo that is only e.g. "Arrow" or "Bolt of Acid". Honestly in practice I tend to sort my ammo into "generic" and "branded" piles anyway; the pluses on the ammo do not really affect my decision-making process unless I'm really relying heavily on my launcher.

Then your damage is given as (damage bonus on launcher) * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier if any), and you can readily compare launchers of different types because the "outside damage influence" from the ammo is much more narrowly-defined.

Wouldn't that involve getting rid of the different types of ammo such as mithril bolts compared to normal ones?

Also why would the to-hit damage bonus be multiplied for ranged attacks when it is added for melee attacks? I think it would be better to calculate them both in the same way.

I'd go for:

Launcher damage bonus + ammo dice roll * slay multiplier

If you wanted to keep the power multiplier make it:

Launcher damage bonus + ammo dice roll * (launcher multiplier + slay multiplier)