What should I throw away?

[Derakon]

This makes no sense to me. I always thought 1.5 attacks/round meant 1 attack this round, and 2 attacks the next round then and on and on.

Are you saying something like, 2 attacks per turn means each attack takes 0.5 turns, so if you have a 2 shots/turn bow, you could fire 1 shot and melee attack once?

No. To properly explain this, I need to explain how turns work. The game has a concept of "game turns" in addition to player turns (and monster turns). Every game turn, the game gives "energy" to the player and every monster. Then, players/monsters with at least 100 energy are allowed to take actions, and the cost of their actions are deducted from their energy scores.

At normal speed, you get 10 energy per game turn; thus, you need 10 game turns to take an action. At +10 speed, you get 20 energy per game turn, which is why you move twice as fast. Similarly, at -10 speed you only get 5 energy per game turn.

Most actions (like movement, using items, casting spells, etc.) cost 100 turns. However, combat works differently. When you perform a melee attack, you make as many blows as you can without using more than 100 energy. If you have an integer number of blows, then that's that -- you perform, say, 4 blows at 25 energy cost each, and that's your turn. But say you have 4.5 blows. Then each blow costs 22 energy; there's no way to get that to come out evenly to a total cost of 100 energy. Instead, you make four blows, but only 4*22 = 88 energy is deducted from your current energy score. Consequently, your next turn (the next game turn on which you have at least 100 energy) will come sooner than it otherwise would.

Shooting works a bit differently in that a) you always have an integer number of shots/turn, and b) you only ever fire one shot per action. So if you have 2 shots/turn, then each shot costs 50 energy. If you have 3, then they cost 33 energy apiece, et cetera. In effect, when you have a lot of shots, you enter "bullet time" when shooting at things -- everyone around you slows down (you get turns faster than they do) as you mash out shots at a high rate of speed.

[Nivra]

How Speed Works In Combat

Oooh... awesome. Finally, some understanding. A couple questions.

At normal speed, you get 10 energy per game turn; thus, you need 10 game turns to take an action. At +10 speed, you get 20 energy per game turn, which is why you move twice as fast. Similarly, at -10 speed you only get 5 energy per game turn.

What's the scale here?
base 10 + speed score = energy?

10 speed = base + 10 energy = 20
20 speed = base + 20 = 30?
30 speed = base + 30 = 40?
40 speed = base + 40 = 50?
5 speed = base + 5 = 15?
0 speed = base + 0 = 10?

How does -10 speed = 5?

Most actions (like movement, using items, casting spells, etc.) cost 100 turns. However, combat works differently. When you perform a melee attack, you make as many blows as you can without using more than 100 energy. If you have an integer number of blows, then that's that -- you perform, say, 4 blows at 25 energy cost each, and that's your turn. But say you have 4.5 blows. Then each blow costs 22 energy; there's no way to get that to come out evenly to a total cost of 100 energy. Instead, you make four blows, but only 4*22 = 88 energy is deducted from your current energy score. Consequently, your next turn (the next game turn on which you have at least 100 energy) will come sooner than it otherwise would.

So when you have 4.8 blows, blows cost 20.833 energy each.
When you hit 100 energy, on game turn 10, you attack 4 times.
That takes 83.33 energy, leaving you with 16.67 energy.
Then on game turn 19, you start with 106.67 energy, you attack 4 times,
and you are left with 23.33 energy.
Then on game turn 27 you attack again.
In this case, if your enemy is using 100 energy per turn, and at normal speed, then he gets to attack after each of your attacks until game turn 90(?) or so.

Let's see, assuming 4.8 attacks, and both at normal speed.
GT = game turn,
PSE = player starting energy
PEE = player ending energy

GT          PSE          PEE         Attack?
--------   ----------   ----------   -------
10         100          16.67        @ M
19         106.66       23.33        @
20         33.33        33.33          M
27         103.33       20           @
30         50           50             M
35         100          16.67        @	
40    	   66.67      	66.67 	       M
44         106.66       23.33        @
50         83.33        83.33          M
52         103.33       20           @
60         100	      	16.67 	     @ M

So on the 6th round of attacks, you finally attack twice and get 8 blows.
Wow, that 0.8 fractional blow hardly ever comes into play. How many melee battles last 6 rounds?

IMO, this should be changed. @ should attack as many times as he can without going below 0 energy. That would result in 4 blows, 5 blows, 5 blows, 5 blows, 5 blows, 4 blows, ... That makes the 0.8 fraction much more valuable than the current method which makes it basically useless except all but the crazy long melee grindy fights. Most unique mobs you will ?Phase door away to heal up before 6 rounds is up.

Shooting works a bit differently in that a) you always have an integer number of shots/turn, and b) you only ever fire one shot per action. So if you have 2 shots/turn, then each shot costs 50 energy. If you have 3, then they cost 33 energy apiece, et cetera. In effect, when you have a lot of shots, you enter "bullet time" when shooting at things -- everyone around you slows down (you get turns faster than they do) as you mash out shots at a high rate of speed.

What happens if you attack rather than shoot on when you're in bullet time?
So let's say you have 2 shots/turn. At GT=10, you have 100 energy, use 50 on one shot, have 50 energy, then melee attack at 3 attacks/round. Do you attack 3x and end up with -50 energy or do you attack once and end up with 16.67 energy?

Finally, are there any other actions besides melee attack and ranged attack that use up fractional energy or are all other actions exactly 100 energy?

[Nivra]

What happens if you attack rather than shoot on when you're in bullet time?
So let's say you have 2 shots/turn. At GT=10, you have 100 energy, use 50 on one shot, have 50 energy, then melee attack at 3 attacks/round. Do you attack 3x and end up with -50 energy or do you attack once and end up with 16.67 energy?

Oh, I think I Misunderstood how this works.

Is it like the following? 3 shots/turn:

GT          PSE          PEE         Attack?
--------   ----------   ----------   -------
10         100          66.67        @ M
14         106.66       73.33        @
17         103.33	70    	     @
20         100          66.67        @ M

So @ takes 1 shot, then the mob acts, then @ takes 3 more shots, then the mob gets to act again?

[Nivra]

I look for targets of opportunity throughout the game. If there is a unique that @ can kill, then do so. If @ can't then avoid the fight. The only reason I ever unique hunt nowadays is when @ is at DL 98 but doesn't have the h.p., experience, equipment, or consumables to take on the bosses. The moment @ does have those then try to go to guns on the Bosses immediately. (Albeit, sometimes you take on Sauron and then make the same calculations as to Morgoth.) Better to t.o. or destruct uniques in the final battles while killing the bosses than to mistakenly die hunting them down on your way to the win.

If you've got enough to win, then just go do it!

I think every unique is killable if I use consumables... But aren't I supposed to be saving all my healing for S and M?

[Derakon]

What's the scale here?
base 10 + speed score = energy?

No. It's a lookup table -- the game looks up your speed value in a gigantic table, which provides a number that is how much energy you gain per game turn. There's no formula, and speeds are effectively capped at -41 (1 energy per game turn) and +70 (49 energy per game turn), but the actual values are nonlinear between those two points. Look at the extract_energy table in tables.c of the source code if you want to know more.

So when you have 4.8 blows, blows cost 20.833 energy each.
When you hit 100 energy, on game turn 10, you attack 4 times.
That takes 83.33 energy, leaving you with 16.67 energy.
Then on game turn 19, you start with 106.67 energy, you attack 4 times,
and you are left with 23.33 energy.
Then on game turn 27 you attack again.
In this case, if your enemy is using 100 energy per turn, and at normal speed, then he gets to attack after each of your attacks until game turn 90(?) or so.

That sounds about right.

Something else to note is that if you kill your opponent, then you are only "charged" energy for the attacks you actually performed. A warrior can mow through large groups pretty quickly so long as they can dispatch each opponent in only one or two blows.

So on the 6th round of attacks, you finally attack twice and get 8 blows.
Wow, that 0.8 fractional blow hardly ever comes into play. How many melee battles last 6 rounds?

Lots of them. Keep in mind also that the player and the monster are rarely at the same speed, and that there are also often many other monsters in the area. And that the 6th round may actually be the 5th, 4th, 1st, etc. round, because it depends on your respective energy scores which are not guaranteed equal at the start of combat.

IMO, this should be changed. @ should attack as many times as he can without going below 0 energy. That would result in 4 blows, 5 blows, 5 blows, 5 blows, 5 blows, 4 blows, ... That makes the 0.8 fraction much more valuable than the current method which makes it basically useless except all but the crazy long melee grindy fights. Most unique mobs you will ?Phase door away to heal up before 6 rounds is up.

Your suggestion would cause some turns to cost more than 100 energy, which would result in the monster potentially getting two turns on you even though you're faster or at speed parity. Say you're both at normal speed. You have 110 energy, monster has 105. You attack, and your fractional blows are such that you use 110 energy; now you're at zero. Monster attacks; he uses 100 energy, he's at 5 energy. You both need 10 game turns to get back to 100 energy, but the monster will go first because his energy score is higher, so he double-moves you even though you're at the same speed.

Actions should never unexpectedly take more than 100 energy (i.e. one player turn). Indeed in current Angband actions never take more than 100 energy in any context, though some variants have various "slow" actions. Some variants also do partial blows in a stochastic sense, where attacking always costs 100 energy, period, but sometimes you get 4 blows and sometimes you get 5, with the frequency of the 5 depending on the size of the fraction.

What happens if you attack rather than shoot on when you're in bullet time?

Then you use up energy equivalent to what attacking costs you. Remember that when you're in "bullet time", the game is still passing game turns and assigning energy to you. There's just fewer game turns in between each shot as your actions expend less energy, and thus you need fewer turns to get back to >=100 energy.

Finally, are there any other actions besides melee attack and ranged attack that use up fractional energy or are all other actions exactly 100 energy?

Currently I believe melee and archery are the only variable-cost actions in the game. But again remember that the energy system is in play regardless; it's needed to reconcile turn order when different actors have subtly different speeds.

[Nivra]

Actions should never unexpectedly take more than 100 energy (i.e. one player turn). Indeed in current Angband actions never take more than 100 energy in any context, though some variants have various "slow" actions. Some variants also do partial blows in a stochastic sense, where attacking always costs 100 energy, period, but sometimes you get 4 blows and sometimes you get 5, with the frequency of the 5 depending on the size of the fraction.

What happens if I'm next to a column of 3 monsters, and I have 2 blows and 100 energy. I attack one, and kill it in one blow. Then I have 50 energy left. I could attack the second one, but what if I stepped away, instead. Do I now have -50 energy or does the step only use up the remaining 50 energy?

[wobbly]

What happens if I'm next to a column of 3 monsters, and I have 2 blows and 100 energy. I attack one, and kill it in one blow. Then I have 50 energy left. I could attack the second one, but what if I stepped away, instead. Do I now have -50 energy or does the step only use up the remaining 50 energy?

My understanding of what Derakon is saying is after that 1st blow you'd still need to wait till you're at 100 energy (5 game turns at base speed) to get the 2nd action.

Same with 2 shots/round your actually shooting, wait 1/2 turn, shoot, wait 1/2 turn.

So 2 blows melee against the same opponet would be 2 blows, wait 1 turn. While 2 against 2 different targets: 1 blow, wait 1/2 then next target. I think.

[Derakon]

My understanding of what Derakon is saying is after that 1st blow you'd still need to wait till you're at 100 energy (5 game turns at base speed) to get the 2nd action.

Same with 2 shots/round your actually shooting, wait 1/2 turn, shoot, wait 1/2 turn.

So 2 blows melee against the same opponet would be 2 blows, wait 1 turn. While 2 against 2 different targets: 1 blow, wait 1/2 then next target. I think.

This is correct. Every time you input an action, the game deducts energy, then it passes game turns until you have at least 100 energy again. You don't get to take two half-actions in a row with no in-game time passing between them.

[Timo Pietilä]

This makes no sense to me. I always thought 1.5 attacks/round meant 1 attack this round, and 2 attacks the next round then and on and on.

Are you saying something like, 2 attacks per turn means each attack takes 0.5 turns

Yes, but in that case you don't make individual hits but hit twice in a row. The speed advantage in that case only applies if you actually manage to kill your opponent with your first hit.

You really see the benefit from fractional blows with +2 extra blows warrior with 6 natural blows against fast breeders. You can "swim" thru those things, because each kill takes only 1/8th of the one turn (6+2 blows/turn).

With fractional blows you kind of abort mid-sequence of blows if your opponent dies before you finish your blows, and the time you used before you start new turn is 1/<blows you used that turn>.

[Nivra]

Am I ready for Sauron and Morgoth?

Been diving down a level at a time, and killing uniques, raiding vaults.

Finally picked up Vilya from Phoenix. It changed my whole kit.

I've got all resists except stun and lite, I could switch to Gondor to cover them, but I'd have to switch to the Balance DSM of Elvenkind to cover DISENCH, and I'd lose almost 40 AC (also, I think I'd need to find another source for shards, then, too). So no stun/rLite it is.

I've got all sustains covered except WIS. Can I get rid of all my *RESTORE* items? Vigor/Augmentation? Or does Morgoth drain through the sustains?

Currently at +27 speed encumbered, +31 unencumbered. I'd like to pick up a little more speed, but I don't think it's necessary.

Is there anything else I should keep an eye out for as I dive the last few levels?

Also, how do I use Runes to melee Morgoth? Do I just read them and stand on them?

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18086

[Timo Pietilä]

Been diving down a level at a time, and killing uniques, raiding vaults.

Finally picked up Vilya from Phoenix. It changed my whole kit.

I've got all resists except stun and lite, I could switch to Gondor to cover them, but I'd have to switch to the Balance DSM of Elvenkind to cover DISENCH, and I'd lose almost 40 AC (also, I think I'd need to find another source for shards, then, too). So no stun/rLite it is.

I've got all sustains covered except WIS. Can I get rid of all my *RESTORE* items? Vigor/Augmentation? Or does Morgoth drain through the sustains?

Currently at +27 speed encumbered, +31 unencumbered. I'd like to pick up a little more speed, but I don't think it's necessary.

Is there anything else I should keep an eye out for as I dive the last few levels?

Also, how do I use Runes to melee Morgoth? Do I just read them and stand on them?

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18086

With that gear 40AC is worth about one stone pebble. IE. not much.

+30 is minimum for warriors against Morgoth if you want to be absolutely safe. Less than that, and you risk double-manastorm which will kill you. Morgoth casts brain smash which slows you down if you miss saving throw, and as H-Troll Warrior with low WIS your saving is low. That means that at some point of the fight your hasted speed will be +31 unencumbered, which is just enough.

Against Morgoth resistances don't mean much except against his summons. You could basically go naked against him if you just manage to get high enough speed and carry enough healing and escapes. (actually you want chaos, because that brain smash also causes hallucination without protection against it, and only thing giving that is chaos resist).

Morgoth doesn't drain thru sustains, that's basic stat-draining, not time-based attack, so you are safe against that. Note that he does drain charges, so wands and staves are not safe.

[Thraalbee]

!life also is full restore.
AC has value vs Morgoth but only in perhaps 150 increment or so. Zero ac would hurt more and I believe also result in more quakes from Grond.
Good luck! Definitely a winnable setup. Stay at 30+speed though

[Nivra]

[yawp]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18086

So I scummed 97-99 quite a lot. Ended up killing all uniques except Boldor.

I kept on looking for marginal upgrades, as once I got the rings and deathwreaker, there were quite a few semi-useless slots. Final damage/round was 978. Speed was 33, but I was encumbered by all my consumables so it was actually around 25/26 base most of the fight.
I took full stacks of RoPoison, Bers, Holy Chant, Stoneskin, ProtEvil,?Speed before the fight.

I think I only ever fired one bolt against Morgoth. I tried standing on a Rune of Protection, but it felt pretty useless. I would melee 3-4x in the middle of a destruct zone until Morgoth would fill the area with Wyrms and Undead, then I'd Mass Banish and start over. ?Heal whenever I was around 7-800 hp, and ?*Heal* below that.

In the end I moved my back up against the wall of a greater vault, and that made it easier. I got in much more melee that way.

Lowest I got was 178 hp from half a dozen breaths + Morgoth Mana Storm.

Definitely consumable overkill. In fact, the whole fight was pretty easy. Tarrasque when i tried him the first time around was much harder (multiple disenchant breaths hurt). I killed Tarrasque eventually once I got Nenya and Narya and Glaive of Pain.

Speaking of which, i had planned to use Glaive of Pain + Paurnimmum (750+ dmg/round) weak ice brand against Morgoth, but Deathwreaker dropped very recently and blew it out of the water.

[fph]

Congrats! That's a huge kit. Consumable overkill is normal: one tends to err on the safe side until they have a good hang of how many consumables they are going to need, especially if they are not familiar with the fight.

FYI, Morgoth resists every slay except for slay evil, so there is no point in reducing your base damage to get them.

[Nivra]

Congrats! That's a huge kit. Consumable overkill is normal: one tends to err on the safe side until they have a good hang of how many consumables they are going to need, especially if they are not familiar with the fight.

FYI, Morgoth resists every slay except for slay evil, so there is no point in reducing your base damage to get them.

Right, but he is vulnerable to brands, right?