Angband Philosophy II: Magic

[HallucinationMushroom]

Quality of discussion here never ceases to amaze me.

Here are a few more random thoughts to further confuse the issue:[LIST][*]debo's comment about the number of books set me thinking. We tend to talk about Angband as a game of inventory management a lot, but is it? Having unlimited inventory slots would certainly make the game easier, but how much? Maybe freeing up slots by needing less books would just leave space for more marginal items to be carried, and make the game more interesting.[*]The idea of things being better left to variants is one that often comes up, and one I've probably used in the past. I now think, though, that arguments of what should go in Vanilla should be made without reference to variants. I would certainly like V to be amenable to varying (in fact that was one of my big motivations), but I think that needs to come after. The only consideration that should be used as to whether to make a change is whether it improves the game - by which I mean it moves it closer to some shared ideal we have of what Angband is. My experience so far is that this tends to emerge from discussion - although I will certainly get it wrong sometimes, and not everyone will agree with every change.

1. UnAngband has (had?) bags that could hold tons and tons and TONS of scrolls, potions, shrooms, etc. I had a character that had access to hundreds of things but it was still one of the hardest games I ever finished... for whatever that is worth.

2. I'm still confused why Angband keeps changing. At what point is the game... 'finished'? Or, is it that it will never be finished? If I want to play what I consider to be Angband, I play 3.0.6. This is not meant to be an offense to anybody, but just what version I'm comfortable with. I always assumed 'maintainership' was some kind of awful thankless job of just making sure the game could be played on new versions of OS's as they came out. For my 2 cents, run wild with it Nick. Make it cooler,er. coolerer.

[Derakon]

2. I'm still confused why Angband keeps changing. At what point is the game... 'finished'? Or, is it that it will never be finished? If I want to play what I consider to be Angband, I play 3.0.6. This is not meant to be an offense to anybody, but just what version I'm comfortable with. I always assumed 'maintainership' was some kind of awful thankless job of just making sure the game could be played on new versions of OS's as they came out. For my 2 cents, run wild with it Nick. Make it cooler,er. coolerer.

The game is never finished. As you note, if someone dislikes the gameplay changes that have been made, they can always play an older version. If the maintainers had the "awful thankless job" you describe of only being "allowed" to fix bugs and maintain compatibility, then we wouldn't have any maintainers; who would want the job? Being allowed to tweak the game is their reward for spending the effort on keeping it working.

[Nick]

A couple things.

All this is in the context of stuff being moved between realms, and in particular in there being a nature realm. The other thing is that part of the rebalancing is to make magic users have to use items - a different selection for different realms, but some common to all. So Recall and Identify won't be spells at all.

Stinking cloud is missing. That's needed for early game crowd control. This can "become" cloud kill in the late game without too much issue, just like OoD gets upgraded at level 30. You do want an AOE spell that doesn't destroy items.

Maybe fire ball a bit earlier, or maybe just have to deal with it using items - all poison stuff is going to the nature realm.

Teleport self should probably be in book 1. Teleport other should be in a later book. Magic missile should be in book 1. Unless mage gets 2 books to start. They need MM to be able to survive the early game without it being dreadfully boring.

Assumption is to start with both town books.

Haste self should appear somewhere in the arcane book.

Maybe. I won't rule it out completely

Word of Destruction is missing, although I could see getting behind only allowing this on items. It's a very powerful escape spell.

Other realms will get it.

Thrust away should just be Rift. It's already a very interesting spell and one that I like playing with. No need to change that one.

Maybe. I was giving Rift to nature as well, but I'm less certain about that.

Resist cold and fire could just be one spell like in Priest. You could also consider a Resist acid and elec, and a resist poison. Cold and Fire are in some sense the least important double resists to have spells for because they have items that give temp resist.

These can be played with, but no resist poison, even in Resistance.

I would like to see status effect spells coming back in the game, but just more powerful. Sleep monster is a great candidate for a spell. It just needs to be much more effective. That should be the go-to spell in the early game for avoiding monsters.

Nature realm.

The other thing is shockwave and explosion are too similar, one of them should be replaced by an AOE Nexus attack.

Do note too that I'm saying all this very definitely, but some of it will never happen, and none of it might. It's a proposed model; we'll see how it's flying after a bit.

[Atriel]

Hello Nick!

Thank you for your continued support on one of my fave variants

I don't think I have the authority right now because last time I've played was like, one year ago (Like... about 200 games on Steam to finish plus work o.o), but...

I think that
The four magic schools in O and FA are...
PERFECT
and *very balanced* based on my experience (of five wins, ~10 counting with scummed)

Now, a few spells inside schools seem to need some tweaking here and there;certain spells that seem a bit like out of place, but not much on their structures.

If some change was needed, I'd say that instead of re-doing those 4 schools structures, re-do focus on specific spells by class based on player choice

Example
Rogue player could choose to cast better (earlier, less MP, less failure) Utility / Identify / Clairvoyance spells (and we all know Intelligence (not the stat, the knowledge of nasty stuff around) is crucial), BUFF Spells or Damage spells.

Godspeed
Daniel

[fizzix]

Do note too that I'm saying all this very definitely, but some of it will never happen, and none of it might. It's a proposed model; we'll see how it's flying after a bit.

One thing to be careful about is to ensure that all classes have at least the capability of surviving every monster encounter. Survival can mean fleeing. For example, one of the situations I dislike a lot is that priests can get instakilled by drolem breath (even with rpoison). Since they have no way to detect non-evil monsters, by spells or otherwise. It's worth it to keep this in mind when thinking about spells and which classes have what.

It is an ok solution to force mages to buy wands of stinking clouds for the low level AOE. It wouldn't be fair to make them carry staves of stinking clouds (not that those exist) since encumberance is a huge early level problem.

[Timo Pietilä]

One thing to be careful about is to ensure that all classes have at least the capability of surviving every monster encounter. Survival can mean fleeing. For example, one of the situations I dislike a lot is that priests can get instakilled by drolem breath (even with rpoison). Since they have no way to detect non-evil monsters, by spells or otherwise.

Rods of detection, detection spell (in godly insights). Warriors have bigger problem there, they don't get the spell.

[MattB]

It is an ok solution to force mages to buy wands of stinking clouds for the low level AOE. It wouldn't be fair to make them carry staves of stinking clouds (not that those exist) since encumberance is a huge early level problem.

But maybe there should be a Rod of Stinking Cloud?

[Nick]

Hello Nick!

Thank you for your continued support on one of my fave variants

Hey Daniel

I think you've missed one small thing - I'm Angband maintainer now, and this whole discussion is about Vanilla

[Carnivean]

But maybe there should be a Rod of Stinking Cloud?

Aerosol? It's mostly used for killing bugs isn't it?

[fizzix]

Rods of detection, detection spell (in godly insights). Warriors have bigger problem there, they don't get the spell.

Both are fairly late drops, and you aren't expected to find either by the time you hit drolem depths. You are likely to find a ring of resist poison by then, so that can be expected. Warriors are better off because they're more likely to have 200+ HP, and can survive a resisted breath.

[Timo Pietilä]

Both are fairly late drops, and you aren't expected to find either by the time you hit drolem depths. You are likely to find a ring of resist poison by then, so that can be expected. Warriors are better off because they're more likely to have 200+ HP, and can survive a resisted breath.

I usually do have over 200+ HP by Drolem depth. OTOH the best races to play priest are the ones with bonus to CON, so that is not a difficult thing to get. You just need to use RoCON or two. If you play mage or even a rogue and play elves of some sort I suspect that you have will less HP than dwarf/half-troll/hobbit/dunadan Priest when reaching stat-gain depths.

[fizzix]

I usually do have over 200+ HP by Drolem depth. OTOH the best races to play priest are the ones with bonus to CON, so that is not a difficult thing to get. You just need to use RoCON or two. If you play mage or even a rogue and play elves of some sort I suspect that you have will less HP than dwarf/half-troll/hobbit/dunadan Priest when reaching stat-gain depths.

Well that all goes into game design. So all I'm saying is that by drolem depth (level 45) a player should have access to at least one of the following.

Method of detection of neutral/visible monsters (detect monsters/reveal monsters/detection)
200+ HP and resist poison (whatever the drolem breath value is) + a mechanism of escape (teleport/teleport other/teleport level/destruction)
600+ HP without resist poison, plus escape option.

the 3rd option is out of reach for most players. The first is available to the arcane classes. So in this case, drolems should appear when the majority of non-arcane players have over 200 HP and poison resist.

This is really close to being satisfied, but it does require more "grinding" than I prefer for priests. Maybe it's just my preference.

Anyway, these are the kind of things we need to be cognizant of if we redesign spell classes. We don't want impossible situations cropping up.

[AnonymousHero]

Well that all goes into game design. So all I'm saying is that by drolem depth (level 45) a player should have access to at least one of the following.

Method of detection of neutral/visible monsters (detect monsters/reveal monsters/detection)
200+ HP and resist poison (whatever the drolem breath value is) + a mechanism of escape (teleport/teleport other/teleport level/destruction)
600+ HP without resist poison, plus escape option.

the 3rd option is out of reach for most players. The first is available to the arcane classes. So in this case, drolems should appear when the majority of non-arcane players have over 200 HP and poison resist.

This is really close to being satisfied, but it does require more "grinding" than I prefer for priests. Maybe it's just my preference.

Anyway, these are the kind of things we need to be cognizant of if we redesign spell classes. We don't want impossible situations cropping up.

One other semi-solution that occurred to me might be to make drolems actually start out with lower damage, but to increase damage (up to some max) every time it breathes... or maybe for every successive breath without moving. You could still get really unlucky with several successive breaths, but usually you'd just get a "warning".

However, this not really something the game engine is prepared for (AFAIK, unless monster mana is implemented and breaths cost mana, I guess) and I'm not sure it's very Angband-y. It's probably a more *hackish thing.

[fizzix]

One other semi-solution that occurred to me might be to make drolems actually start out with lower damage, but to increase damage (up to some max) every time it breathes... or maybe for every successive breath without moving. You could still get really unlucky with several successive breaths, but usually you'd just get a "warning".

However, this not really something the game engine is prepared for (AFAIK, unless monster mana is implemented and breaths cost mana, I guess) and I'm not sure it's very Angband-y. It's probably a more *hackish thing.

I don't think any of this is necessary. The ideal solution would be to have an earlier heavy poison breather with lower damage that is *easy* to avoid. Evil and moves slowly. Drolems should be moved later. They should be the counterpart to bronze golems and bone golems.

[MattB]

The ideal solution would be to have an earlier heavy poison breather with lower damage that is *easy* to avoid. Evil and moves slowly.

Well, there are (greater) basilisks... we could use them?