Plans for 4.1 - 4.3

[fizzix]

We are, and I think it should be sufficiently modular to make what I suggested trivial to implement.

(I hope this makes sense to you. It's hot and I'm kind of on the run right now, but I'll throw in more of my $0.02 later.)

I can assure you, from a developer standpoint, that it ain't going to work that way. Allowing for that would require maintaining a lot of extra code. When something gets upgraded you have to ensure that it works in both the "new" and "old" versions. It's a pain, it's not fun, and it won't happen unless someone really wants to do it.

Now it's possible that someone will want to do it. Maybe they'll be unhappy at the direction Nick has chosen and will maintain a "RealAngband" which is a gameplay mirror of whatever version that person thought was best. Perhaps they'll include new UI developments. Maybe that person will be you! I ensure you that it won't be me, and I would actively discourage Nick from wasting time on that front either.

[AnonymousHero]

I can assure you, from a developer standpoint, that it ain't going to work that way. Allowing for that would require maintaining a lot of extra code. When something gets upgraded you have to ensure that it works in both the "new" and "old" versions. It's a pain, it's not fun, and it won't happen unless someone really wants to do it.

Exactly. This is a pretty established truth as far as all working programmers are concerned. (That was my original point, but I guess I kind of assumed a context which doesn't exist with non-programmers.)

[Cold_Heart]

Question about plans: is dual wielding planned anywhere along the way? Eg a weapon instead of shield, or two shields...

[Derakon]

Question about plans: is dual wielding planned anywhere along the way? Eg a weapon instead of shield, or two shields...

Two-weapon fighting is silly (outside of very specific setups like rapier + main gauche or dual tonfa). Two-handing a single weapon like a halberd, maul, or greatsword would be reasonable though. Two shields? That sounds like an excuse to over-twink your mage to me.

[Nomad]

Really, it's already pretty impressive that @ can hold a pike in one hand, a shield in the other, and fire a heavy crossbow at the same time.

[PowerWyrm]

Really, it's already pretty impressive that @ can hold a pike in one hand, a shield in the other, and fire a heavy crossbow at the same time.

Not mentioning holding a lamp and casting spells, all that while wearing full set of armor.

[tumbleweed]

Can I plead heat-induced idiocy and we all pretend those two posts of mine about "being able to switch back to vanilla Vanilla" never happened? The way I put it - and the way it was understood - was very much not what I was trying and failing spectacularly hard to get at.

Maybe they'll be unhappy at the direction Nick has chosen and will maintain a "RealAngband" which is a gameplay mirror of whatever version that person thought was best. <snip> Maybe that person will be you!

Certainly not. I for one think Nick is doing quite fine.

[bio_hazard]

Dual wielding may be "silly" but it's also "fun", and comes with a very intuitive trade-off compared to wielding a shield. A +1 for incorporating it in some sensible way.

In a related thought, I've never really liked how Angband works the number of blows. 6 blows in a turn?? That's too many. I hope whatever the new combat system might reduce this and emphasize crits and weapon dice as a way to maximize damage. Max 2 blows per turn (maybe 3 or 4 if dual wielding).

[Carnivean]

In a related thought, I've never really liked how Angband works the number of blows. 6 blows in a turn?? That's too many. I hope whatever the new combat system might reduce this and emphasize crits and weapon dice as a way to maximize damage. Max 2 blows per turn (maybe 3 or 4 if dual wielding).

While your suggestions about the combat system are good, I think you're not processing how long a turn is. The slowest combatant in the game gets 1 attack per turn. Imagine the weak, nerdy kids at your school, and how quickly they might be able to wield a 2-3lb weapon. That's one turn. It's far from unreasonable to have the best fighters in the world having 6 times that attack speed.

You could fiddle with how "long" a turn is, but intuitively the system works best with the worst attack speed being 1 per turn.

[topazg]

Two shields? That sounds like an excuse to over-twink your mage to me.

OTOH, it would make for a good youtube video to watch a weedy mage doing an elaborate hand-gesture required spell with two large metal shields equipped

Dual wielding I think will add all manner of balancing issues. I remember possessors in Tome getting very silly (Watcher with three high quality uniques?? really??)

[bio_hazard]

While your suggestions about the combat system are good, I think you're not processing how long a turn is. The slowest combatant in the game gets 1 attack per turn. Imagine the weak, nerdy kids at your school, and how quickly they might be able to wield a 2-3lb weapon. That's one turn. It's far from unreasonable to have the best fighters in the world having 6 times that attack speed.

You could fiddle with how "long" a turn is, but intuitively the system works best with the worst attack speed being 1 per turn.

I guess I'm using it practically, as in "the time before the opponent gets to do something". OK, maybe with a dagger or quarterstaff or rapier 6x seems plausible. Having a hard time seeing that with a lance or battle axe.

[Derakon]

I guess I'm using it practically, as in "the time before the opponent gets to do something". OK, maybe with a dagger or quarterstaff or rapier 6x seems plausible. Having a hard time seeing that with a lance or battle axe.

According to the D&D rules, late-game Angband characters are basically as strong and dextrous as gods. Even a stat of 18 is absurdly amazing and it's fully expected that a winning character be at around 28+ in everything (using a linear stat representation instead of the 18/x silliness). Human expectations of what is reasonable no longer apply.

[AnonymousHero]

Dual wielding I think will add all manner of balancing issues. I remember possessors in Tome getting very silly (Watcher with three high quality uniques?? really??)

This has always been quite buggy -- I can't recall if you get the bonues (+to_hit, etc.) from the second and third weapon, but I'm almost certain you don't get actual attacks from the weapons. I had a patch to fix this at some point, but it's been lost to the aether, I think. Now that was overpowered!

(But frankly, I think it's OK to have unbalanced classes/races/etc., so I wouldn't be bothered by it.)

[Timo Pietilä]

According to the D&D rules, late-game Angband characters are basically as strong and dextrous as gods. Even a stat of 18 is absurdly amazing and it's fully expected that a winning character be at around 28+ in everything (using a linear stat representation instead of the 18/x silliness). Human expectations of what is reasonable no longer apply.

+38 at the important stats, around +28 for non-important stats.

Quest is to kill one of the Valar, which translates as killing one of the lesser gods. Valar created ...earth, I guess... with Eru.

I guess you have to be godlike yourself in order to be able to do that.

I actually find getting six blows thru with axe without opponent being able to do anything easier than with dagger. With dagger you need to get close, which means it is easier to your opponent to hit you as well.

My interpretation about blows is not so much about your actual combat speed, but combat accuracy. You get more of your swings to hit the target and not just whizz through the air hitting nothing. With heavy weapons changing your swing trajectory in mid-swing requires strength and dexterity more than with light weapons.

[edit] grammar fixed somewhat.

[Nomad]

Random unrelated thought, but could something be done to beef up throwing as a viable fighting tactic? The mechanic exists but the game doesn't currently do much with it - maybe it would be possible to add some throwing-specific weapons like darts or shuriken and create a stealth/throwing Assassin class.