Any tips for a newbie?

[Bogatyr]

Like I said, I have faith that if we remove it, you'll find some other way to accomplish your goals. Asymmetric LOS is stupid. Let's find or add more interesting ways to demonstrate system mastery, hm?

I don't agree. Laying in wait, prepared, to attack something just coming around the corner, the one preparing the ambush has the definite upper hand, including typically getting in the first shot.

At the very least, in a knight's move scenario, the one farther from the corner should get first attack, perhaps with a strong attack/damage bonus, and the response from the one being ambushed should be below normal attack potential. The current asymmetric LOS where the ambushed one gets no attack approximates such a dynamic.

Hockey stick down a diagonal "corridor", however, I agree, is ridiculous. Doesn't mean I don't use it, though. With uniques dealing out 500hp/round, power diving mages have no other way to deal with them.

[PowerDiver]

Hockey stick / knight's move, TO is absolutely core. You can NOT power dive any low HP character/class combo without it.

Don't be silly. Diving is a mindset. Every class is divable without abusing LOS asymmetry.

If it turns out the occasional vault is too tough for your low HP character to breach, THAT IS A GOOD THING. You detect the arkenstone, but if you breach you will die. Do you have the restraint to walk away? Does it really pain you to do so? Are you tempted to take an unforgivable 10% risk to get in? Maybe you *should* take a 10% risk to get in. Dealing with issues such as these is when you are starting to get at the best of what angband has to offer.

[Derakon]

Like I said, I have faith that if we remove it, you'll find some other way to accomplish your goals. Asymmetric LOS is stupid. Let's find or add more interesting ways to demonstrate system mastery, hm?

[Bogatyr]

Actually, thinking more about it, I think using the hockey stick and TO is a core part of the game.

Hockey stick / knight's move, TO is absolutely core. You can NOT power dive any low HP character/class combo without it. Progress would slow to a crawl and would make the game a painstaking and boring chore of tunneling and counting spaces to make sure you get the first move to TO. Vaults which are exciting and a bit risky would become out of the question.

Power diving a gnome mage is quite exciting today, with all the hockey stick/TO features in there. Any single wrong move can bring death. Without it, basically no monster with a distance attack can ever be approached until near the endgame when CON is maxed.

Unless of course there is a "mini mart" on every level that sells unlimited !Healing. (but this doesn't help low HP chars power diving)

Is using targeted ball spells area effect also considered LoS abuse by those who don't like hockey stick? How many fun, tactics-promoting mechanics are going to be removed until there's nothing left but "show down at the OK coral"? Some players *like* the indirect, "if I prepare an arena ahead of time, you don't get a shot at me" tactics they allow.

Unless of course you make TO a ball effect, so it can be launched around corners with proper targeting.

[Scraper]

the what stick?

The hockey stick is the term that has been coined here. It is a bit like the knight move in chess or go. It is where the monster is positioned two squares ahead and one square to the left or right. With the way vision works in the game, @ can see the monster and thus target it, but the monster cannot see nor target @.

[Derakon]

Also, the hockey stick is also a *HUGE* TO mechanic that can't be overlooked. Being able to teleport away a big baddie that can't get LOS on you while you have LOS on it, is really a gaming changing/ breaking mechanic.

You can always TO a monster on the turn that it steps into view. As long as it's not faster than you are, this is perfectly safe.

[Scraper]

But it's by no means a core part of most players' strategies.

I don't think it is a core way of playing either, but it has certainly been suggested as a way of fighting Morgoth and taking out the unique Q in a couple of recent threads.

Also, the hockey stick is also a *HUGE* TO mechanic that can't be overlooked. Being able to teleport away a big baddie that can't get LOS on you while you have LOS on it, is really a gaming changing/ breaking mechanic.

Actually, thinking more about it, I think using the hockey stick and TO is a core part of the game.

[Sky]

the what stick?

[Derakon]

My thoughts are that sure, it's a bit cheesy, but really no more than the "hockey stick" mechanic, which is not just tolerated, but rather lauded by the community at large.

The hockey stick is in fact the most obvious bizarre side effect of asymmetric LOS, and I don't think people laud it, they just recommend watching out for it because it's weird and nonintuitive. Do some players abuse it? Sure. But it's by no means a core part of most players' strategies.

[Scraper]

My thoughts are that sure, it's a bit cheesy, but really no more than the "hockey stick" mechanic, which is not just tolerated, but rather lauded by the community at large.

[Derakon]

LOS shenanigans aren't cheating. They're cheap as hell, but that's how the game is played. Especially as a mage, whose only real combat advantage is the ability to launch powerful spells from ranges where the enemy can't see or hit the player. If we ever decide to change the targeting and LOS systems to a fully symmetric formula, mages and priests will need some significant boosts to remain playable.

My grounding assumption with regards to exploits is that if you close an exploit, players will find some other mechanic to abuse instead. So there's not inherently any problem with closing exploits.

Of course you need to test the resulting game, and if it turns out that the exploit actually is necessary for creating interesting and fun gameplay, then you roll the change back. But I would much rather test and see than just assume.

Also, asymmetric LOS is confusing and weird. For that reason alone it should be fixed.

[PowerDiver]

If we ever decide to change the targeting and LOS systems to a fully symmetric formula, mages and priests will need some significant boosts to remain playable.

I don't know whether symmetric LOS belongs in V, but LOS abuse feels terribly cheesy to me, so I prefer to play with symmetric LOS. I have nearly symmetric projection [there are technicalities to prevent certain trick shots]. Eventually Pete and I will release something where you can try it out.

[luneya]

LOS shenanigans aren't cheating. They're cheap as hell, but that's how the game is played. Especially as a mage, whose only real combat advantage is the ability to launch powerful spells from ranges where the enemy can't see or hit the player. If we ever decide to change the targeting and LOS systems to a fully symmetric formula, mages and priests will need some significant boosts to remain playable.

[Scraper]

I knew exactly where he was, I was all ready to TO him but he breathed first, he was sitting in a vault with an "8" treasure feeling, I just got greedy, should have left well alone.

If you know where the baddies are and they are awake, you can do trick shots with the target command to get rid of them while they are still out of LOS. My current game is a mage and with very low health, I often need to cast real monsters first and then I can easily trick shot them away.

Not sure if this is considered cheating, but I do the same with hounds. They won't come into a corridor if you are in it but you can blast away with AOE and they just get smashed.

Last game was a warrior and very different tactics

[robbiodobbio]

I knew exactly where he was, I was all ready to TO him but he breathed first, he was sitting in a vault with an "8" treasure feeling, I just got greedy, should have left well alone.