Any tips for a newbie?

[Scraper]

But it's by no means a core part of most players' strategies.

I don't think it is a core way of playing either, but it has certainly been suggested as a way of fighting Morgoth and taking out the unique Q in a couple of recent threads.

Also, the hockey stick is also a *HUGE* TO mechanic that can't be overlooked. Being able to teleport away a big baddie that can't get LOS on you while you have LOS on it, is really a gaming changing/ breaking mechanic.

Actually, thinking more about it, I think using the hockey stick and TO is a core part of the game.

[Derakon]

Also, the hockey stick is also a *HUGE* TO mechanic that can't be overlooked. Being able to teleport away a big baddie that can't get LOS on you while you have LOS on it, is really a gaming changing/ breaking mechanic.

You can always TO a monster on the turn that it steps into view. As long as it's not faster than you are, this is perfectly safe.

[Scraper]

the what stick?

The hockey stick is the term that has been coined here. It is a bit like the knight move in chess or go. It is where the monster is positioned two squares ahead and one square to the left or right. With the way vision works in the game, @ can see the monster and thus target it, but the monster cannot see nor target @.

[Bogatyr]

Actually, thinking more about it, I think using the hockey stick and TO is a core part of the game.

Hockey stick / knight's move, TO is absolutely core. You can NOT power dive any low HP character/class combo without it. Progress would slow to a crawl and would make the game a painstaking and boring chore of tunneling and counting spaces to make sure you get the first move to TO. Vaults which are exciting and a bit risky would become out of the question.

Power diving a gnome mage is quite exciting today, with all the hockey stick/TO features in there. Any single wrong move can bring death. Without it, basically no monster with a distance attack can ever be approached until near the endgame when CON is maxed.

Unless of course there is a "mini mart" on every level that sells unlimited !Healing. (but this doesn't help low HP chars power diving)

Is using targeted ball spells area effect also considered LoS abuse by those who don't like hockey stick? How many fun, tactics-promoting mechanics are going to be removed until there's nothing left but "show down at the OK coral"? Some players *like* the indirect, "if I prepare an arena ahead of time, you don't get a shot at me" tactics they allow.

Unless of course you make TO a ball effect, so it can be launched around corners with proper targeting.

[Derakon]

Like I said, I have faith that if we remove it, you'll find some other way to accomplish your goals. Asymmetric LOS is stupid. Let's find or add more interesting ways to demonstrate system mastery, hm?

[PowerDiver]

Hockey stick / knight's move, TO is absolutely core. You can NOT power dive any low HP character/class combo without it.

Don't be silly. Diving is a mindset. Every class is divable without abusing LOS asymmetry.

If it turns out the occasional vault is too tough for your low HP character to breach, THAT IS A GOOD THING. You detect the arkenstone, but if you breach you will die. Do you have the restraint to walk away? Does it really pain you to do so? Are you tempted to take an unforgivable 10% risk to get in? Maybe you *should* take a 10% risk to get in. Dealing with issues such as these is when you are starting to get at the best of what angband has to offer.

[Bogatyr]

Like I said, I have faith that if we remove it, you'll find some other way to accomplish your goals. Asymmetric LOS is stupid. Let's find or add more interesting ways to demonstrate system mastery, hm?

I don't agree. Laying in wait, prepared, to attack something just coming around the corner, the one preparing the ambush has the definite upper hand, including typically getting in the first shot.

At the very least, in a knight's move scenario, the one farther from the corner should get first attack, perhaps with a strong attack/damage bonus, and the response from the one being ambushed should be below normal attack potential. The current asymmetric LOS where the ambushed one gets no attack approximates such a dynamic.

Hockey stick down a diagonal "corridor", however, I agree, is ridiculous. Doesn't mean I don't use it, though. With uniques dealing out 500hp/round, power diving mages have no other way to deal with them.

[Derakon]

I don't agree. Laying in wait, prepared, to attack something just coming around the corner, the one preparing the ambush has the definite upper hand, including typically getting in the first shot.

And this hasn't changed. All you do is go from hitting them here:

#g####
#..@..
######

to hitting them here:

#.####
#.g@..
######

Either way, so long as they aren't faster than you, you get the first action, and a completely risk-free TO.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

And this hasn't changed. All you do is go from hitting them here:

#g####
#..@..
######

to hitting them here:

#.####
#.g@..
######

Either way, so long as they aren't faster than you, you get the first action, and a completely risk-free TO.

Although the first instance gives you one chance at a fail, while the second punishes that failure instantly.

[krazyhades]

And this hasn't changed. All you do is go from hitting them here:

#g####
#..@..
######

to hitting them here:

#.####
#.g@..
######

Either way, so long as they aren't faster than you, you get the first action, and a completely risk-free TO.

That's an enormous difference. The first one lets you fail once your activation or cast (or in the case of some variants like poscheng, lets the monster resist teleportation and approach) or get in a shot, and you still get another turn to attack, TO, teleport yourself, whatever, without the monster doing anything to you.

I do not think it's a good thing for the game, but as long as it exists, abusing it maximally is pretty big (edit: as is knowing to not stand where monsters can do the same to you). Knowing you have this window for a free move is enormously important and affects at least a few turns in a lot of combats.

[Adam]

Hello, i would like to ask a few things because a feel like my playstyle with fighters is very bad at deeper levels. I won the game but I'm still interested in improving my skills.
- What is the correct strategy with fighters against greater balrogs and such burners/drainers? Just leave them alone or TO if needed? Or drop staffs/scrolls/wands in a safe place? I don't like the later because I can lose them easily.
- Do the monsters drain charges randomly? In my last game I felt like they always go for the best staffs - only drained the heal/speed/TO staffs but did not touch the clw/teleport self (i usually don't carry clw at that depth but this time i just found it on the floor)
- What is the adequate dpr against Morgoth? I went with trident of Ulmo which did ~500 but I was expecting something more powerful.
- Wands of drain life/annihilation seem to do more damage than my strongest bolts/arrows - do fighters usually collect those wands?

As next thing I started a gnome mage in iron man (force descent, no recall), i just reached clvl 19, depth 650'. I started with 1-1 copy of the first 3 books + food + oil + torches + 1 clw.
- What is the native depth of the 4th book? I could really use those spells soon.
- How many copies of each spellbook should i carry?
- What is the reasonable speed at this depth with which I'm more or less safe? I'm on -1 currently but i don't like it as panthers and the fast centipedes can easily get me. In this game i'm lucky as i just found an ESP amulet which helps a lot but generally overweight seems to be a problem in mage iron man games.

[Estie]

Hello, i would like to ask a few things because a feel like my playstyle with fighters is very bad at deeper levels. I won the game but I'm still interested in improving my skills.
- What is the correct strategy with fighters against greater balrogs and such burners/drainers? Just leave them alone or TO if needed? Or drop staffs/scrolls/wands in a safe place? I don't like the later because I can lose them easily.
- Do the monsters drain charges randomly? In my last game I felt like they always go for the best staffs - only drained the heal/speed/TO staffs but did not touch the clw/teleport self (i usually don't carry clw at that depth but this time i just found it on the floor)
- What is the adequate dpr against Morgoth? I went with trident of Ulmo which did ~500 but I was expecting something more powerful.
- Wands of drain life/annihilation seem to do more damage than my strongest bolts/arrows - do fighters usually collect those wands?

As next thing I started a gnome mage in iron man (force descent, no recall), i just reached clvl 19, depth 650'. I started with 1-1 copy of the first 3 books + food + oil + torches + 1 clw.
- What is the native depth of the 4th book? I could really use those spells soon.
- How many copies of each spellbook should i carry?
- What is the reasonable speed at this depth with which I'm more or less safe? I'm on -1 currently but i don't like it as panthers and the fast centipedes can easily get me. In this game i'm lucky as i just found an ESP amulet which helps a lot but generally overweight seems to be a problem in mage iron man games.

Warrior:

Greater balrogs are to be avoided as fighting them normally leads to a net loss of resources. Within reason, of course - if you run out of teleport other charges and the only thing left between you and the treasures of a GV is the balrog, then yes fight it.

I am fairly certain the they pick a random slot for their draining, but if I am wrong I am sure someone will correct me.

500 dpr is on the low end for a warrior, but very much within normal limits. Typically, when you have something like Ulmo and are able to deal with M, you gather more consumables till you are satisfied. If you find better equipment before accumulating a sufficient amount of potions, congrats; otherwise, the fight takes a bit longer.

When using your launcher for damage, look for extra shots. Slay evil ammo + extra shots makes the damage ramp up, often higher than your melee. But since warriors already have good offense with their melee weapon, more often than not I use the launcher as a stat stick, to cover something else like ESP or dexterity and so allow me to use a damage ring or such to improve my melee even further.

Mage:

I dont know the native depth of book4, but if you are playing the latest version and dont have it when you need it, you are just unlucky.

I would carry at the very least 3 of each book, more if at all possible (but dont run around with speed -5). Since fire toting monsters cant easily be avoided in ironman, losing all books of one type is a very real danger.

Non-negative speed is a far off dream for ironman mages. You will always be overburdened, so the only way out is finding your first speed item. Consider rings of escaping, but watch your spell fail chance. Use either none or 2, as the penalties dont stack. Hopefully you have put 8 of your 20 starting points into str (and the remaining 12 into int, of course).

[Pete Mack]

Avoid greater balrogs with ALL classes unless you have fire immunity. If you do fight one, use archery (or Meteor Swarm/Mana Storm). They are Hell on stuff in your pack.

[Adam]

Thanks for the advices!
I just play angband occasionally so I'm still on the 4.0.3 version but probably spellbook native depth is not something which has been changed since then.

With the fighter I also found that the launcher slot is better for stat/res items because the melee is much more powerful. I was too cautious so I gathered many consumables by the time I met M, I just found strange that I had to use a weapon found at 3100' (I could do just a little more damage with my SoS but I found Ulmo better). On the other hand the rng was nice to me in other places, I found Narya, Nenya and a PDSM within one hour of gameplay just before the final fight... also 4 Rune of Prot scrolls dropped within one level which helped a lot (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=19818).

About the mage I'm thinking about dropping some stuff just when I enter a level and collect them when I'm leaving but that is risky as leaving is sometimes urgent. Maybe extra spellbooks can be handled that way (bring 3 of each with myself, drop the rest on the floor - if I lose them it's still not a catastrophy). I guess staff of identify does not worth the 5 lb so I can just drop them. What about staff of SI? I have the reveal spell but it costs too many mana points to use it frequently. Standard ammunition is also something which is not to be carried, right? Only magical ones. (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=19851 - no 4th spellbook yet but otherwise nice items + brigand dropping a dex potion at 550)

One more question about artifacts: when do I exactly lose them forever? Let's say I see a ring of unknown type on the floor. I already know all possible types so I'm sure it must be a ring of power. If I just see it but don't pick it up, do I lose it forever? Or if I pick it up but do not identify and then drop it? Or only if I successfully identified it?

Edit: Few more questions:
- What about stat swap potions for an IM mage? I guess intellect should be used. But should I risk +STR and +CON potions which may decrease my INT?
- Is diving also a good strategy in IM? I explored the levels so far more or less because I had the feeling I don't have enough mana for lower level monsters but I guess this is not the good way to play, right?

[Sky]

not trying to derail thread, but speaking of mobs destroying things in your inventory .. i was thinking it would be nice if those items activated.
for example, a potion of healing breaks in your inventory, you get healed for 150 dmg. drain a TP staff to 0, you get teleported.