Auto-ID for consumables

[Therem Harth]

To expand on what I said in Nick's ID and detection thread...

I recently modified the Neoband git master to apply pseudo-ID to all items, not just wearables. Since {average} items get instant full ID, an unintended side effect was that {average} consumables were fully IDed on pickup.

I found that - by my measure anyway - this makes the game a lot more entertaining. When I know what consumables I have, I can deal with more situations, and have more courses of action available.

So I propose that, if nothing else, auto-ID should at least be implemented for low level scrolls. Beneficial items that are cheap and common should be obvious.

(Thematic excuse: scrolls have distinctive wording, and we should assume that Angband characters are not completely ignorant about the world they live in.)

[MattB]

So I propose that, if nothing else, auto-ID should at least be implemented for low level scrolls. Beneficial items that are cheap and common should be obvious.

(Thematic excuse: scrolls have distinctive wording, and we should assume that Angband characters are not completely ignorant about the world they live in.)

They can memorise them in the shop, if nothing else.

[Cold_Heart]

But evil consumables are fun

[wobbly]

My own view is that if I can buy it cheap in a shop it should start auto-ided. For dungeon only consumables would rather the need to id it somehow.

[MattB]

My own view is that if I can buy it cheap in a shop it should start auto-ided. For dungeon only consumables would rather the need to id it somehow.

Agreed. I think.

[mushroom patch]

In this and other id related discussions, the following scene from breaking bad comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIG7VvngUK4

This is a case of choosing a half measure when you should go all the way. The fact that not having to worry about auto-IDing basic scrolls in the early game makes the game better and more entertaining should tell you something. Remember, when you get farther into the game, ID ceases to be a real factor strategically, it's just drudgery. So your discovery is that in the only place where ID really is a factor, eliminating it makes things better.

The conclusion ought to be ID is a bad idea and ought to be entirely removed.

[MadeOfBees]

Being able to id it if you have seen it before is already pretty much in the game, it should apply to shops it seems.

At the same time, drinking a potion of death out of desperation because its all you have and you have no idea what it is, is mad fun too, and shouldnt be removed.

No to removing ID, ever. Thats an essential part of the game. The most exciting moments happen in the first 1000 feet.

If it was up to me id remove the identify spell.

[tumbleweed]

If it was up to me id remove the identify spell.

I'd be all for it if it wasn't for inventory constraints and for constantly being inundated with fresh loot.

edit: On second thought, the more I think about this, the more I like the idea. I think I'm gonna force myself to play without the identify spell for a while now.

[mushroom patch]

It's a sad testament to the game that players believe reading ID scrolls is one of the most exciting parts of it.

ID is a weird thing where it's so tedious that players become emotionally committed to it. The idea of changing it is horrifying if only because you'd have to come to terms with the hours you've spent reading thousands and thousand of ID scrolls over the years.

[Derakon]

It's a sad testament to the game that players believe reading ID scrolls is one of the most exciting parts of it.

ID is a weird thing where it's so tedious that players become emotionally committed to it. The idea of changing it is horrifying if only because you'd have to come to terms with the hours you've spent reading thousands and thousand of ID scrolls over the years.

There's anticipation involved in the process of discovering what an item is, especially if a) you have reason to suspect it could be good (e.g. dropped by a unique or chest), and b) you have no means of instantly identifying it. That anticipation can be fun. The problem is that it doesn't scale, like, at all.

Random theorycrafting: every item you find on a given level is sent to your home, immediately, and is inaccessible except between levels. At that time, you have a set number of ID charges you can expend, depending on how much you accomplished -- achieving a new max depth, killing uniques, and finding artifacts all give you more ID charges. Between levels, then, you can ID only some of the items you find.

The above system wouldn't scale at all well either, but I suspect it'd do better than our current system, especially if item drop rates were scaled down a bit.

[mushroom patch]

Indeed re: scaling.

I think any additional player action between standing over an item and identifying it should be viewed as unacceptable. In particular, you should never have to pick up junk, ID it, then drop/destroy it.

I'd re-up my point upthread: Situations where you're hurting for ID happen almost exclusively in the early game and the primary consequence is that you don't know what consumables like scrolls do (luckily, the answer to this question is usually "nothing useful" so you can get away with buy-IDing the ones that matter). This happens to coincide with the part of the game where almost any equipment dropped by uniques is going to be better than what you have, so knowing exactly what it is has only a marginal impact strategically.

People seem to be operating from a really different perspective than I am. It's like they view picking up items as a given. The point about items is that some of them are in positions where they'll take time to get or require screwing around with monsters. Generally, I don't bother with most items in the game. When I've picked up an item, it's a given that I'm going to ID it somehow, usually immediately. The decision is in whether or not to pick up the item. The tension is in approaching the item. It's not in IDing the item -- this is a completely extraneous hold over from the D&D roots of roguelikes.

[Cold_Heart]

RE: this thread and that other id change thread:


If there is a significant number of people that absolutely must have their easy 'id-by-step-on-item', then maybe this is a time to create a new ego item, or a new magic property that can randomly appear on existing egos: "identifies every item upon touch". That way you can use such item and have your instant id without actually forcing everyone to have it.

[mushroom patch]

There are variants that have that. It's good, but it doesn't go far enough and has no impact on the early game.

People swear up and down that they love ID, but no good reasons seem to be forthcoming. Feels are not a good reason. If there isn't a specific, nontrivial gameplay rationale, it should go.

[Cold_Heart]

There are variants that have that. It's good, but it doesn't go far enough and has no impact on the early game.

People swear up and down that they love ID, but no good reasons seem to be forthcoming. Feels are not a good reason. If there isn't a specific, nontrivial gameplay rationale, it should go.

No good reasons?

1. There is no justification how @ would know every property of everything
2. ID-by-use of unknown and potentially dangerous items is fun
   
3. Knowledge does not come free and id scrolls/charges/mana is the price

[mushroom patch]

Good.

1. Theme is never an adequate justification for game mechanics. No matter how a game works, a thematic reason can be concocted. Moreover, there is no thematic reason angband should work one way or the other as it stands.

2. Items that are actually dangerous to the player have been removed in releases going back many years. Very few are left. This has been an improvement.

3. Knowledge can come for free as it does in most games. The price for knowledge in current angband is tedium, which is to say items that are easily available in effectively infinite quantity, mana, which is unlimited in practice, and repetitive player actions.