Directional level feelings

[Nomad]

How do you use level feelings, for those of you that do keep them on?

For me, level feelings:

1. Encourage me to stay on levels until the treasure feeling kicks in, instead of always taking the first down staircase that I come to. So they create an effective sort of 'exploration timer' that creates a balance between diving too fast and fully clearing levels.

2. Encourage me to stay on levels that initially look boring or too scary, because there's a promise of a reward for level-clearing. (In the early game I'll stick around clear any level that promises "something worthwhile", but as I go deeper the threshold for what I consider worth clearing increases.)

So I'd be up for any sort of more thematic replacement that encourages similar behaviour. (Although perhaps the ultimate ideal solution is "stop any levels being boring to clear", but then you edge your way into the "when everything is equally exciting, nothing is" problem.)

[Derakon]

For me, level feelings:

1. Encourage me to stay on levels until the treasure feeling kicks in, instead of always taking the first down staircase that I come to. So they create an effective sort of 'exploration timer' that creates a balance between diving too fast and fully clearing levels.

2. Encourage me to stay on levels that initially look boring or too scary, because there's a promise of a reward for level-clearing. (In the early game I'll stick around clear any level that promises "something worthwhile", but as I go deeper the threshold for what I consider worth clearing increases.)

So I'd be up for any sort of more thematic replacement that encourages similar behaviour. (Although perhaps the ultimate ideal solution is "stop any levels being boring to clear", but then you edge your way into the "when everything is equally exciting, nothing is" problem.)

Why do you consider the behaviors that level feelings encourage to be worthwhile behaviors? Is there something wrong with taking the first down staircase you see?

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Why do you consider the behaviors that level feelings encourage to be worthwhile behaviors? Is there something wrong with taking the first down staircase you see?

There is if, say in the early levels, I come across a down staircase but also get a level feeling of 6 or above. I wouldn't want to pass up grabbing a 'Thanc dagger, the Phial, or any number of pretty-good items that would help in my dive to stat gain depth. Sure, sometimes it turns out to be something worthless to me, like an out-of-depth magic book when I'm playing a warrior, but the odds are it will be something worth the effort to check it out. Also, extra caution when the monster feeling is jacked up is not a bad thing.

[Derakon]

There is if, say in the early levels, I come across a down staircase but also get a level feeling of 6 or above. I wouldn't want to pass up grabbing a 'Thanc dagger, the Phial, or any number of pretty-good items that would help in my dive to stat gain depth. Sure, sometimes it turns out to be something worthless to me, like an out-of-depth magic book when I'm playing a warrior, but the odds are it will be something worth the effort to check it out. Also, extra caution when the monster feeling is jacked up is not a bad thing.

No, my point is that if level feelings encourage sticking around on levels, is sticking around on levels actually desirable independent of the level feelings? Because otherwise the level feelings aren't actually "accomplishing anything" in terms of encouraging desirable behaviors.

I get that functionally the level feelings are "hints" and that some players like being given hints (no matter how useless/subject to confirmation bias those hints are). That's not what I'm asking.

[Nomad]

Why do you consider the behaviors that level feelings encourage to be worthwhile behaviors? Is there something wrong with taking the first down staircase you see?

Well, I die less, for a start.

But I suppose it is to an extent my personal feeling that the 'ideal' gameplay balance should be aiming for somewhere in the middle between "always dive" and "always completely clear levels", so that players who tend towards both ends of the spectrum are served. Gameplay should encourage exploring enough to find interesting things rather than whizzing past without seeing them, but not enforce painstaking thoroughness as the only optimum way to play.

So I feel like the function level feelings are currently serving - inelegant kludge though they are - is helping players to notice interesting things on the level without having to explore every square to find them, but also without the interestingness being so immediately apparent that it's easy to scum for good levels and ignore the duds. They also go some way towards encouraging risk-taking, in the form of sticking around and facing challenging monsters in search of promised rewards rather than immediately fleeing at the first sight of anything remotely scary.

That said, I think your and fizzix's level design ideas are good suggestions for encouraging that sort of dive/exploration balance by other means - i.e. smaller and fewer levels make 'explore every square' play less dull and arduous, and more themed or structured level types help give the player an early indication of what kind of risk/reward balance is ahead so they can make informed decisions on how much time to spend looking around. (For instance, if all labyrinth levels had an X percent chance of containing a minivault 'treasure chamber', or monster town levels were known to be likely to contain stashes of scrolls or potions, then that would serve the same sort of "maybe I shouldn't run away just yet, there are good odds of finding something worthwhile here" function as level feelings in a far more organic way.)

[maboleth]

+1 for the level feelings to stay. As people here said it, I find the "feelings" helpful to stay and explore the level to the fullest. Also gives more interaction with the environment.

[Derakon]

Thanks for the well-reasoned response, Nomad. That's a much more clearly-explained opinion than any of the others I've seen here (probably including my own!).

[bio_hazard]

It's pretty much flavor for me. The sneaking to the next stairs gets a little old- so stopping to do a little more clearing is a break in routine. There's increased anticipation of possibly finding something interesting, and the delicious anguish when you are forced off a level by tough monsters when some unknown treasure lies unclaimed. Similarly, when an omens of death message comes up, I'll often at least see what it is, and if it is a vault, weigh my options for taking the risk to see what's there. The time interval between the message and uncovering the potential cause of the message is typically more enjoyable than a similar amount of time without messages, since the anticipation adds to the tension and rewards of discovery.

To put this in context- I'm not a very good player because I don't really have the time to sit down and focus, and only play very sporadically (although I've been playing for a long time, starting in the early/mid 90's). I know I'm likely to either do something stupid and careless, or more likely, get busy and stop a game mid-campaign. For me it's not about getting to DL99/DL100. Things that add uniqueness to the other 98 levels make the game more enjoyable for me.

I can understand why expert players ignore level feelings, but I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp why they add something to the game for some of us It seems like the argument that "One of the unique benefits of Angband is it is a game you can play at your own pace and in your own style" applies pretty directly here.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

No, my point is that if level feelings encourage sticking around on levels, is sticking around on levels actually desirable independent of the level feelings? Because otherwise the level feelings aren't actually "accomplishing anything" in terms of encouraging desirable behaviors.

I get that functionally the level feelings are "hints" and that some players like being given hints (no matter how useless/subject to confirmation bias those hints are). That's not what I'm asking.

I guess I don't understand what you're asking. It sounds to me a little like, "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play."

[Derakon]

I guess I don't understand what you're asking. It sounds to me a little like, "Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play."

Nomad said (in his earlier post, not the most recent one) something along the lines of "I like level feelings because they encourage me to do X." And I wanted to know why "encourages you to do X" was a desirable trait to have. I mean, if level feelings encouraged you to take shots of Liquid Plumbr then they wouldn't be very desirable, now would they?

[Zireael]

No, my point is that if level feelings encourage sticking around on levels, is sticking around on levels actually desirable independent of the level feelings? Because otherwise the level feelings aren't actually "accomplishing anything" in terms of encouraging desirable behaviors.

Sticking around on any non-boring level is desirable imho. I usually stick around on any lvl that's not boring until the 30s, where I start WoR-ing or taking stairs back and forth to get good+ feelings.

1. Encourage me to stay on levels until the treasure feeling kicks in, instead of always taking the first down staircase that I come to. So they create an effective sort of 'exploration timer' that creates a balance between diving too fast and fully clearing levels.

2. Encourage me to stay on levels that initially look boring or too scary, because there's a promise of a reward for level-clearing. (In the early game I'll stick around clear any level that promises "something worthwhile", but as I go deeper the threshold for what I consider worth clearing increases.)

Nomad's summed up the benefits of level feelings pretty well here.

So I'd be up for any sort of more thematic replacement that encourages similar behaviour.

That's what I agree most about. Let's keep level feelings and make them less psychic and more organic!

[bio_hazard]

Nomad said (in his earlier post, not the most recent one) something along the lines of "I like level feelings because they encourage me to do X." And I wanted to know why "encourages you to do X" was a desirable trait to have. I mean, if level feelings encouraged you to take shots of Liquid Plumbr then they wouldn't be very desirable, now would they?

Because it is possibly fun and potentially useful to search for a specific unknown item that might give a temporary advantage at shallower dungeon levels than to dive deeper in hopes that useful items will become more common down there. I get that diving as far as possible might be the best strategy, but is it really so much better than occasional exploration that we need to write pages of exposition to justify? I think the trap for noobs is knowing which messages to igonre, and I'd definitely be open to changing what messages are displayed or how they work.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Nomad said (in his earlier post, not the most recent one) something along the lines of "I like level feelings because they encourage me to do X." And I wanted to know why "encourages you to do X" was a desirable trait to have. I mean, if level feelings encouraged you to take shots of Liquid Plumbr then they wouldn't be very desirable, now would they?

I'd rate the !Liquid Plumber level feeling as a "1", so, no, that would be unlikely to encourage me to stick around.

[d_m]

Nomad said (in his earlier post, not the most recent one) ...

I'm pretty sure Nomad has said she is a woman. Easy mistake to make on this forum, (and apologies to Nomad if I am misremembering) but it's annoying to be misgendered.

[Derakon]

I'm pretty sure Nomad has said she is a woman. Easy mistake to make on this forum, (and apologies to Nomad if I am misremembering) but it's annoying to be misgendered.

Righto, sorry. I usually remember to use non-gendered pronouns, but that time I forgot.