Instant pseudo-id

[andrewdoull]

Can I suggest vanilla change pseudo-id so that the character gets pseudo-id of an item at creation time, as opposed to having to carry an item for a certain length of time?

The instantaneous pseudo-id would tell you whether an item was an {artifact}, {hidden/high ego item}, {ego item} or {magic}. Magic items would mean an item would have either a positive bonus, or curse.

You'd still have to wear/wield/identify it to work out whether it was cursed or not, but once you did, you'd get the strong pseudo-id of an item.

Note this means the priest remove curse spell is still useful, unlike suggestions which make the priest instantly know cursed items.

See Unangband for a class-based implementation of this.

[Faust]

How about an instant basic ID with the information becoming more detailed once you've been carrying the item for a while?

[CJNyfalt]

What annoys me most about pseudo-id is that weak pseudo-id doesn't id normal items.

[Elsairon]

Maybe having items that are learned, similar to monster memory. Using them learns about them faster than carrying them in the pack, which learns faster than seeing them on the floor. I think it's too much overhead for too little gain.

Once the psudo ID for a normal item is known.. its kind of silly since they are all +0, If I recall correctly, they should just be fully known as +0 items. It's like having two titles for the same info, what does it add to the gameplay, other than the tedium of an extra thought.. 'oh yeah, normal means +0' ?

I like the instant ID idea, but I would not want to know if something was magic or an artifact without at least picking it up. Or maybe having something similar to weak/strong psuedo id per class, where fighters can see at a glance weapon and armor types, and mages see at a glance scrolls and staves, etc.

[takkaria]

Can I suggest vanilla change pseudo-id so that the character gets pseudo-id of an item at creation time, as opposed to having to carry an item for a certain length of time?

The instantaneous pseudo-id would tell you whether an item was an {artifact}, {hidden/high ego item}, {ego item} or {magic}. Magic items would mean an item would have either a positive bonus, or curse.

You'd still have to wear/wield/identify it to work out whether it was cursed or not, but once you did, you'd get the strong pseudo-id of an item.

I was thinking something along these lines, along with combining *ID* and ID... I might just make {average} items pre-ID'd too, to save people the effort.

[Nick]

I've been grappling with what to do with ID in general, and I still don't have a good answer. Having to wait for pseudo-id; having the shops run out of ID; using all your ID in a vault and having to choose between unidentified stuff to carry up; these are all annoying. But then there's the sense of excitement when your ranger detects something as {good} and you think "maybe it's an artifact", or when you're clearing a mundane vault and get "You feel the Pair of Hard Leather Boots in your pack is special...", that are some of the best moments in the game.

I've done a sort of partial compromise in FA by making identical items always stack - this almost has the effect of identifying unenchanted stuff if you get more than one, and also tells you there's something going on if you get two apparently identical things that don't stack. I'm thinking of tweaking it further, though - maybe have precise properties gradually appear if you carry/wear something for long enough, or maybe something like the Un method of noticing properties when they have an effect.

This is really just stream of consciousness with no conclusions. Ah well.

[takkaria]

I've been grappling with what to do with ID in general, and I still don't have a good answer. Having to wait for pseudo-id; having the shops run out of ID; using all your ID in a vault and having to choose between unidentified stuff to carry up; these are all annoying. But then there's the sense of excitement when your ranger detects something as {good} and you think "maybe it's an artifact", or when you're clearing a mundane vault and get "You feel the Pair of Hard Leather Boots in your pack is special...", that are some of the best moments in the game.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I want to do this in V...

In my imaginary variant, a rough outline of what I'd do:

ID and *ID* are the same -- when you ID something, you know everything about it.

You start off with some "lore", which means that you recognise (read: auto-ID) a few (randomly chosen) egos, potions, staves, etc. without having encountered them in-game. Warriors might have a bias towards weapons, mages towards potions, or something like that.

You recognise an item's worth when you look at it; basically, make it blatantly obvious when items are good and when they're not. What Angband normally calls "{good}" (strong pseudo-ID) is really just "masterwork", i.e. obviously well-made. You might display that like "a Longsword (2d5) (masterwork)". (In my variant, these items aren't cursed, and indeed curses are only put on more powerful items.)

Average items are auto-ID'd.

You're left with terrible/artifact/excellent/etc. Replace all these with simply "magic" or "enchanted" instead of "masterwork". Over some period of time in the backpack/in use, that might change into "special". Make cursed items unnoticeable until you wear/wield them always (we're dealing with powerful magics here, more than capable of hiding themselves).

Generally speaking, if you use items for a while, reveal their bonuses (hit, dam, ac), but still require ID to figure out what artifact/ego it is.

Finally, every time you ID an ego-item, there's a small chance you'll gain "lore" of that ego-item, and thus recognise it on sight again later.

[CJNyfalt]

ID and *ID* are the same -- when you ID something, you know everything about it.

What about (d)amnesia attacks?

[takkaria]

What about (d)amnesia attacks?

Amnesia attacks no longer make you forget everything. See:

http://dev.rephial.org/trac/browser/trunk/changes.txt

[Psi]

Amnesia attacks no longer make you forget everything. See:
http://dev.rephial.org/trac/browser/trunk/changes.txt

That looks scary. Amnesia seems to have changed from a major annoyance to a very possible gameover for a mage. I trust it is a *very* short timed effect or has some way of resisting it other than saving throw? Also is it found considerably deeper that !oHealing if that is the minimum way of removing it?

Si

[takkaria]

That looks scary. Amnesia seems to have changed from a major annoyance to a very possible gameover for a mage. I trust it is a *very* short timed effect or has some way of resisting it other than saving throw? Also is it found considerably deeper that !oHealing if that is the minimum way of removing it?

I have some local changes which make it a bit less evil, but I've not committed them yet. I removed the staves/wand/rods bit and made spells/prayers have a 1 in 2 success rate. (I thought I had committed them... oh well.)

[Bandobras]

While I'm a rabid fan of Un, I'd like to warn you that it's a subtly balanced ID system and it may be hard to borrow just some ideas from it. Make ID in Un a little bit easier and you cancel all the ID fun, make ID a little bit harder and you are in despair, at least at low levels.

In particular I fear very much that we may remove the annoying superficial carrying stuff for pseudo-ID and exchange it for even more annoying superficial using stuff for pseudo-ID. One use or one wield is fun, a profound decision with trade-offs, but repeated use just to scum ID (or for any other scumming) is totally wrong.

As far as object lore is as non-intrusive and optional as monster memory, I have no objections, though (but only as far).

[takkaria]

In particular I fear very much that we may remove the annoying superficial carrying stuff for pseudo-ID and exchange it for even more annoying superficial using stuff for pseudo-ID. One use or one wield is fun, a profound decision with trade-offs, but repeated use just to scum ID (or for any other scumming) is totally wrong.

As far as object lore is as non-intrusive and optional as monster memory, I have no objections, though (but only as far).

My plan is to make everything less intrusive and annoying, and remove the superficial things that people have to do. I'm drafting up a full and proper spec for how I think ID should work right now.

[Rizwan]

Can I suggest vanilla change pseudo-id so that the character gets pseudo-id of an item at creation time, as opposed to having to carry an item for a certain length of time?

How about the length of time required to ID an item decreasing as the clvl/exp of a character increases

[Daven_26d1]

How about the length of time required to ID an item decreasing as the clvl/exp of a character increases

This already happens, when playing a rogue or warrior, once you have 20-30 levels under your belt you can usually manage to pseudo-id everything on a floor en passant, without needing to resort to R9999\n, unless you murder your way through a big pit or tap a vault.

In some variants, stats (Int, Wis) have an effect, but I'm not sure if this is true in V or not.

EDIT - personally, I like Sangband's ID approach, but this might not be practical in V.