A few newbie questions

[POGtastic]

Hi guys, complete newb here. I've been an avid Nethack player, and now I'm off to see the rest of the roguelike genre. I'm hooked.

I've currently got a level 24 human mage. Just picked up a black dragon scale mail off the ground, but otherwise my armor is mundane. I have a ring of free action, delving, see invisible, and the Mouse. I also found the Phial of Galadriel.

So, um... what do I do now? The farthest I've gone is about 1150', and I'm running into some problems.

I need See Invisible and Free Action, but stealth is even more important because I don't have enough mana to deal with groups of monsters. As a result, I generally forego Free Action so that I don't wake up everything in the level. Apparently, this is bad, as all of the newbie guides say that I need free action past 1000', but I don't see any way around it.

My current tactic is as follows:

a. Spam Detect Monsters and find groups of baddies.
b. Use Spear of Light and the Phial of Galadriel to light up a big corridor.
c. Carefully draw out the baddies in onesies and twosies by carefully hitting them with Stinking Cloud and magic missile, being careful not to hit large numbers of them with the occasional beam.
d. Run back to the beginning of the corridor, rest, and wash, rinse, repeat.
e. (Optional) If there's a unique monster, pick off as many of his friends as I can, and then nail him with acid breath and the most damaging bolts I can hit him with (fire or acid, depending on resistances) before he reaches me.

The problem with this is that this falls apart rather quickly when magic is involved. In the past, I've gotten into really bad situations when I've gotten blinded or confused. I have a Rod of Curing and Potions of Cure Serious Wounds, but I feel like those are crutches that are barely keeping me alive, and a bad roll of the dice will kill me. Should I just run away at this point when dealing with those sorts of monsters? They're steadily increasing in number as I delve deeper.

Also, as I go deeper, I'm worried that this tactic is going to fail due to the lack of damage. Fire Bolt does 8d8 right now, and Acid Bolt does 11d8, (with an increased rate of failure) and I'm concerned that I'm going to find some melee monster that's going to shrug off everything and nail me.

Any tips or tricks would be welcome. Thank you!

[Derakon]

Hey, welcome to Angband!

Mages are Tough. They are the hardest class to get started. They have fantastic versatility and some great endgame spells, but they're fragile and early on struggle to kill things (as you're discovering). However, there are a few things you can do to make your life easier.

1) Start using attack wands. Your magic device skill gives you a percentile damage bonus to wands (of (skill - item level)%, though item level isn't displayed anywhere). Mages have fantastic device skill, which means that attack wands actually do more damage than the equivalent spells in most cases.

2) Lean on that acid breath. It recharges pretty quickly and it's a great nuke. Eventually you'll need to swap out that armor for something that gives better stat boosts or resistances, but for now it'll make fighting a lot easier.

3) Get your INT as high as possible. More INT = more SP and lower failure rates. In particular, 18/50 INT gives you your first really significant SP bonus. Drink potions of Intellect basically whenever you see them, and if you see a potion of Intelligence, nab it -- it'll also boost INT, but without draining a random stat in the process. Playing as a human has set you back a bit here because they don't have any INT bonuses, so you're a bit behind the curve.

4) Lightning Bolt is great for taking out lines of monsters (and Spear of Light is pretty good for taking out lines of light-sensitive monsters, though by 1100' those aren't all that common any more). For single targets, Acid Bolt is your most mana-efficient damage as long as you aren't overkilling.

5) You will always have Cure Serious Wounds or Cure Critical Wounds potions in your backpack. The ability to cure debilitating status ailments with 0% failure rate is far too important. On a related note, that Rod of Curing isn't worth much because the failure rate for it goes up when you're incapacitated. Also, you should carry a Staff of Teleportation (up until you get protection from blindness and confusion, anyway). Again it has a failure rate, but if you're e.g. surrounded by Hummerhorns and literally cannot get a non-confused turn, then it can save your life.

I wouldn't bother with a Ring of the Mouse at this stage, personally. Stealth is nice, but if you have a lot of awake monsters after you, just leave the level. Angband has infinitely-regenerable levels (assuming you didn't turn on the "forced descent" option anyway), so there's no reason to stick around on a given level if it's gotten unreasonably hostile.

Anyway, good luck!

[POGtastic]

Hey, welcome to Angband!

Thanks!

1) Start using attack wands. Your magic device skill gives you a percentile damage bonus to wands (of (skill - item level)%, though item level isn't displayed anywhere). Mages have fantastic device skill, which means that attack wands actually do more damage than the equivalent spells in most cases.

Gotcha. So far, I haven't found any attack wands. I have a whole bunch of Confuse and Sleep Monster wands, the latter of which is really useful for trapping groups in a corridor so that I can retreat. Most of the time, however, I just use Sleep Monster for that.

Incidentally, am I able to Sleep uniques?

3) Get your INT as high as possible. More INT = more SP and lower failure rates. In particular, 18/50 INT gives you your first really significant SP bonus. Drink potions of Intellect basically whenever you see them, and if you see a potion of Intelligence, nab it -- it'll also boost INT, but without draining a random stat in the process. Playing as a human has set you back a bit here because they don't have any INT bonuses, so you're a bit behind the curve.

Aha. I've been selling those potions of Intellect because I've been worried about them hitting my strength, which is really low. I'm always running around at about 4lbs below my burdened carry weight, so any strength drains put me over. My Int is at 18 right now, which is not very good. Do those "gain one but drain another" stat potions do a temporary drain, (like running into a red jelly) or is the hit permanent?

I wouldn't bother with a Ring of the Mouse at this stage, personally. Stealth is nice, but if you have a lot of awake monsters after you, just leave the level. Angband has infinitely-regenerable levels (assuming you didn't turn on the "forced descent" option anyway), so there's no reason to stick around on a given level if it's gotten unreasonably hostile.

Okay, that sounds good. I think that I've been a little too paranoid in regards to biting off more than I can chew. Basically, getting rid of stealth will probably force me to fight more baddies at a time, but I do have Sleep Monster, Teleport Self, and good old-fashioned Nike-Fu if things get bad.

[Derakon]

Thanks!

Gotcha. So far, I haven't found any attack wands. I have a whole bunch of Confuse and Sleep Monster wands, the latter of which is really useful for trapping groups in a corridor so that I can retreat. Most of the time, however, I just use Sleep Monster for that.

Incidentally, am I able to Sleep uniques?

Slow would be a better bet than Sleep, since its duration is more reliable. Of course, if you're short on corridor, then once the slowed monster makes it out, all of his buddies can come spilling out and around him.

You can slow uniques, though it typically takes several tries and I stop bothering by around 1500' or so (and even before that I only use wands, not spells). I haven't tried sleeping them. Haven't used the Sleep spell in anger in ages, in fact.

Aha. I've been selling those potions of Intellect because I've been worried about them hitting my strength, which is really low. I'm always running around at about 4lbs below my burdened carry weight, so any strength drains put me over. My Int is at 18 right now, which is not very good. Do those "gain one but drain another" stat potions do a temporary drain, (like running into a red jelly) or is the hit permanent?

It's a permanent drain, only fixable by other gain-stat potions. Losing STR is aggravating, and you should be doing everything you can to avoid being slowed while in combat. But statistically, you probably won't lose STR. If you need to, you can wait to drink Intellect until you find potions of Brawn -- worst case, if your STR gets drained, you can drink Brawn and then maybe you'll lose the INT you just gained.

Okay, that sounds good. I think that I've been a little too paranoid in regards to biting off more than I can chew. Basically, getting rid of stealth will probably force me to fight more baddies at a time, but I do have Sleep Monster, Teleport Self, and good old-fashioned Nike-Fu if things get bad.

Teleport Self is your go-to escape for the time being, but later in the game (2000' onwards, more or less) it gets pretty dangerous, because you can easily get teleported into a situation that's worse than the one you're running from. Eventually you'll want to lean heavily on casting Teleport Other instead -- make your enemies go away, rather than yourself.

[Bogatyr]

I wouldn't bother with a Ring of the Mouse at this stage, personally. Stealth is nice, but if you have a lot of awake monsters after you, just leave the level. Angband has infinitely-regenerable levels (assuming you didn't turn on the "forced descent" option anyway), so there's no reason to stick around on a given level if it's gotten unreasonably hostile.

Anyway, good luck!

Depends on what hand you're dealt. I prefer playing with very high stealth, especially super low hit point chars like mid-game mages until they max CON. My clev32 human mage found a +4 stealth Defender so I decided to go full-stealth, and go around now with 2 Mouse rings and a cloak of stealth, and with Legendary stealth basically nothing wakes up, and I was able to (carefully!) pick out Scarabtarices from a minor vault right under the noses of the sleeping baddies.

I find very high stealth very useful for navigating levels picking only the fights I want while cruising around looking for stat gain potions around dlev36-37.

It was very different with a Half-Troll Warrior, who could handle multiple fully unresisted attacks around the same depth with plenty of HP left over. I'm already seeing some slightly OOD monsters with attacks at or beyond the HP of my mage (con still very low).

[Derakon]

Depends on what hand you're dealt. I prefer playing with very high stealth, especially super low hit point chars like mid-game mages until they max CON. My clev32 human mage found a +4 stealth Defender so I decided to go full-stealth, and go around now with 2 Mouse rings and a cloak of stealth, and with Legendary stealth basically nothing wakes up, and I was able to (carefully!) pick out Scarabtarices from a minor vault right under the noses of the sleeping baddies.

The question is what you're giving up in exchange for that stealth. 2 Mouse rings means no INT or STR rings, which makes killing things and carrying necessary goods/equipment significantly harder. Let alone having FA/SI covered.

It is true though that each point of stealth is worth more than the last one (every 3 points roughly doubles your stealthiness), so if you're going to go with a stealthy build, you really want to stack those bonuses. Conversely, innately noisy race/class combinations have basically zero interest in stealth (at least, until they get some decent speed bonuses, since speed also gives you more "effective stealth", i.e. turns-before-waking) since everything will be waking up quickly anyway.

[MattB]

Welcome along!
Advice #1: don't play a mage until you've won lots of times
Advice #2: Then don't play a mage anyway

(I've never got a mage into the lower half of the dungeon, so I'm biased )

[Monkey Face]

I think playing a mage is fine. It's playing a human that's hard.

[Estie]

Human is indeed bad, but if I had to play human, I would pick mage. Mage is the class that profits most from the faster levelling.

With a mage, I would prefer mouse over free action ring, and int over either. However, thats a choice I rarely face as I equip 2 escaping as soon as I find them. Also, running around with no free action is a bad idea if you dont know exactly which monsters can paralyze.

[Bogatyr]

The question is what you're giving up in exchange for that stealth. 2 Mouse rings means no INT or STR rings, which makes killing things and carrying necessary goods/equipment significantly harder. Let alone having FA/SI covered.

It is true though that each point of stealth is worth more than the last one (every 3 points roughly doubles your stealthiness), so if you're going to go with a stealthy build, you really want to stack those bonuses. Conversely, innately noisy race/class combinations have basically zero interest in stealth (at least, until they get some decent speed bonuses, since speed also gives you more "effective stealth", i.e. turns-before-waking) since everything will be waking up quickly anyway.

Well like I said, I have a Defender, so that gives me SI & FA and fast regen. My INT is maxed (18/130 unboosted) so I generally have enough mana (169) for any single encounter or groups of popcorn, plus I have attack rods, wand a nice bow, and Chaos DSM for backup. I have two +3 Int rings which I can swap in if needed but that only get me to 18/190, but I'm finding the increased stealth more useful right now for picking up stat potions in peace and nabbing dungeon spellbooks from vaults. Since I'm a chicken I emphasize escape and healing in my inventory rather than attack, though.

Well heck here's the char dump. Feel free to critique/advise. I'm pretty happy with this set-up for the moment, though, for digging up stat potions.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17078

[quarague]

Since I'm a chicken I emphasize escape and healing in my inventory rather than attack, though.

This is good angband strategy in general and especially important when playing mages. A big part of being a successful mage is picking your fights, you should not try to fight everything but only the must lucrative targets, either in terms of xp or in terms of potential drops. A halftroll warrior can just attack everything that is not able to kill him, for a mage this is usually not the best strategy. You can generate new dungeons with new monsters as often as you want and as a mage you want to make use of that.

[Derakon]

Well like I said, I have a Defender, so that gives me SI & FA and fast regen. My INT is maxed (18/130 unboosted) so I generally have enough mana (169) for any single encounter or groups of popcorn, plus I have attack rods, wand a nice bow, and Chaos DSM for backup.

Right, so you're in a vastly different situation than the OP, whom I was trying to advise.

[POGtastic]

Hi again, guys!

Been delving around - managed to buy a potion of Intelligence at the Black Market and find a helm that adds 2 to Intelligence as well. Now I'm at 18/30, so it'd be great to find two more Intellect / Intelligence potions. I also found a Ring of Escaping, which gives me some decent speed at the expense of some failure rates with Fire and Acid Bolt.

Here's my dump:

angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=17090

I have a couple of questions:

1. There are a fair number of monsters that are resistant to everything that I can throw at them - multi-hued dragons are a great example, as are stone golems. I've been running away from the ones I can't kill with magic missile, but I'm wondering - how do you kill these things? I can't imagine using magic missile on them 70 times. Warriors can just close and stab them to death, but mages don't seem to have that luxury.

2. Similarly, I've started running into uniques that have 800 HP or so (or more). That's way too much for my damage output right now, so I'm wondering if it's a good idea to nuke him with my black dragon scale mail, hit him with a couple fire / acid bolts, and then teleport him away. Will he recover his HP while I'm resting and looking for him?

3. How frequently do new baddies get generated? With this above method, I'm wondering if I'm going to start chasing the guy around, only to find that I have a bunch of baddies chomping at the bit to get me.

[Derakon]

1. There are a fair number of monsters that are resistant to everything that I can throw at them - multi-hued dragons are a great example, as are stone golems. I've been running away from the ones I can't kill with magic missile, but I'm wondering - how do you kill these things? I can't imagine using magic missile on them 70 times. Warriors can just close and stab them to death, but mages don't seem to have that luxury.

Keep an eye out for Wands of Drain Life (and their big brothers, Wands of Annihilation). They deal big damage to living targets -- won't help you against golems, elementals, undead, etc. but they're great for lots of targets. Otherwise, yeah, there's a fair number of enemies that you just can't really fight effectively right now. There's a dungeon-only spellbook that will help.

2. Similarly, I've started running into uniques that have 800 HP or so (or more). That's way too much for my damage output right now, so I'm wondering if it's a good idea to nuke him with my black dragon scale mail, hit him with a couple fire / acid bolts, and then teleport him away. Will he recover his HP while I'm resting and looking for him?

Again, Wands of Drain Life. You can do the "beat on him, teleport him away, rest up, repeat" tactic, but uniques do recover life, and faster than non-unique targets, so it's not very efficient. Potions of Restore Mana exist and can improve your combat endurance significantly; keep an eye out for them.

3. How frequently do new baddies get generated? With this above method, I'm wondering if I'm going to start chasing the guy around, only to find that I have a bunch of baddies chomping at the bit to get me.

They do spawn in while you're in the dungeon, but I don't have any hard numbers for how quickly. Not especially quickly, but if you spend a lot of time resting then you'll probably notice the influx of new enemies.

[Carnivean]

Now I'm at 18/30, so it'd be great to find two more Intellect / Intelligence potions.

A) They don't provide a linear progression. Each potion gives a random amount of improvement across a range.

B) The aim is 18/200, at which point you get 0% fails as a mage.

C) They become so prevalent that you'll end up squelching them after a while.