digging

[Bogatyr]

You can handwave combat noise away by assuming that you would always expect there to be a fight or three going on in Angband at any given time, so that it would have to be a pretty big battle to really attract interest

And you can hand wave digging noise away with all the delving, smithing, roaring fires, etc. going on. I'm sort of confused with the interest in making digging worse. If you don't like digging, don't dig!

[AnonymousHero]

If one wants to make digging less good without being frustrating, a way to do so is to make it loud (perhaps just for manual digging). This is something Sil does. I think V might use the max_sight to limit how far sound can travel, which might make this less relevant. If so, I think V should remove (or raise) that limit. Sound is an interesting way to balance things.

You're beginning to sound like Nick with his "FAAngband already does that!".

[Nick]

If one wants to make digging less good without being frustrating, a way to do so is to make it loud (perhaps just for manual digging). This is something Sil does. I think V might use the max_sight to limit how far sound can travel, which might make this less relevant. If so, I think V should remove (or raise) that limit. Sound is an interesting way to balance things.

FAangband already does that

[half]

You're beginning to sound like Nick with his "FAAngband already does that!".

But FAAngband already does that!

[debo]

^^ amazing

[Nick]

All right, here's a plan for digging.

• Aside from rubble, walls cannot be dug without an item with + to digging (main weapon or dedicated digger)
• +n to digging means you can dig a wall of strength n - magma is 1, quartz is 2, granite is 3
• If your digging power matches the wall exactly you have a 50% chance of success, increasing (in a transparent way) as you become more powerful than the wall
• Possibly still a race-based digging skill, or maybe just dwarves get an innate plus, but keep it simple and obvious
• The spell Stone to Mud increases in power with player level
• Wands and rings have a fixed digging level (with wands probably digging quartz but not granite)
• Digger just needs to be carried in the inventory

EDIT: After the restructure, of course

[Bogatyr]

All right, here's a plan for digging.

• Aside from rubble, walls cannot be dug without an item with + to digging (main weapon or dedicated digger)
• +n to digging means you can dig a wall of strength n - magma is 1, quartz is 2, granite is 3
• If your digging power matches the wall exactly you have a 50% chance of success, increasing (in a transparent way) as you become more powerful than the wall
• Possibly still a race-based digging skill, or maybe just dwarves get an innate plus, but keep it simple and obvious
• The spell Stone to Mud increases in power with player level
• Wands and rings have a fixed digging level (with wands probably digging quartz but not granite)
• Digger just needs to be carried in the inventory

EDIT: After the restructure, of course

Ew, how does this make the game better? Please keep a birth option, "unbroken digging."

[quarague]

All right, here's a plan for digging.

• Aside from rubble, walls cannot be dug without an item with + to digging (main weapon or dedicated digger)
• +n to digging means you can dig a wall of strength n - magma is 1, quartz is 2, granite is 3
• If your digging power matches the wall exactly you have a 50% chance of success, increasing (in a transparent way) as you become more powerful than the wall
• Possibly still a race-based digging skill, or maybe just dwarves get an innate plus, but keep it simple and obvious
• The spell Stone to Mud increases in power with player level
• Wands and rings have a fixed digging level (with wands probably digging quartz but not granite)
• Digger just needs to be carried in the inventory

EDIT: After the restructure, of course

Looks good to me. I think the increase in power can simply be: if your digging strength is bigger than the wall strength, you have 100% chance of success.
Question: I was under the impression, that currently practically all dungeon walls are granite, is that the case? If so I think we need some gradually increasin average wall strength as you progress deeper into the dungeon.

[Nick]

Ew, how does this make the game better?

Well, the idea was to clarify the rules, to make digging a more interesting and nuanced part of the game, and also to streamline it a bit. My feeling is that currently most players get essentially perfect digging fairly early - it seems to me not a bad idea to spread that skill acquirement out a bit.

That said, that was a bunch of ideas more or less off the top of my head - there may well be good arguments against any or all of them.

Please keep a birth option, "unbroken digging."

Always, although it will be called "Angband 3.5"

[Nick]

Question: I was under the impression, that currently practically all dungeon walls are granite, is that the case? If so I think we need some gradually increasin average wall strength as you progress deeper into the dungeon.

Good point - currently it's granite, except for a couple of seams of magma and quartz running through, and the odd bit of permanent wall for vaults. A change like this would require at least a rethink about how this is done.

[Bogatyr]

Good point - currently it's granite, except for a couple of seams of magma and quartz running through, and the odd bit of permanent wall for vaults. A change like this would require at least a rethink about how this is done.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander: if it's harder for characters to delve, if there are increasingly "hard" wall materials (where "hard" can be thought of as a combination of physical and magical properties, e.g., to prevent ethereal beings easy passage), it should be harder for pass-wall and wall-eaters (including possibly even the big boy "P") to pass through them.

[debo]

Good point - currently it's granite, except for a couple of seams of magma and quartz running through, and the odd bit of permanent wall for vaults. A change like this would require at least a rethink about how this is done.

Time to retcon Angband as a... quartz volcano, or something. "And thus did Morgoth descend upon the smouldering gemstone mountain, and he was wroth that something so 'ooh shiny' should have been left unclaimed by him for so long," etc.

[EpicMan]

Angband's other name is Thangorodrim, which means "Iron Hells", so maybe shift the rock names
Magma/Early levels: Limestone or something like that
Quartz/Mid levels: Granite
Granite/Deep levels: Iron Walls.

There should also be streamers of permanent rock thrown in (those vault walls have to come from somewhere.

[Derakon]

I dimly remember early versions of Angband claimed that permanent walls were made out of titanium. I guess Morgoth has one hell of a smelting team; that stuff isn't exactly easy to refine and work.

[d_m]

My guess is that Morgoth's smelting team consists of Greater Hell Wyrms led by Itanghast.