digging

[quarague]

searched the forums but didn't find anything on this topic. So I think digging as currently implemented works but there are two areas where it could be improved:
1) even if you have good tools, digging by hand is much slower than digging by spell or wand
2) a simple shovel tends to be worse at digging that a heavy weapon, so that even if you dig by hand, there is no point in carrying a digging tool
I think the game would be improved, if
a) digging by hand would be competetive with spell digging, so that the optimal strategy depends on the character and the items found
b) using a specific digging tool would give you a significant enough advantage to make it occasionally worthwhile to use an extra inventory slot
So here are some suggestions to achieve this:
a) using the digging spell or wand takes 4 turns
b) all non-digging weapons have dig level 0, shovels, picks and weapons with the off digging ego have dig level 1, mattocks have level 2, being a dwarf or wearing a ring of digging increases your dig level by 1
c) digging with dig level 0 takes 40 turns flat, dig level 1 4 turns, dig level 2 2 turns, dig level 3 or higher 1 turn
This would mean:
- you no more get an advantage from digging with a heavy mace compared to digging with a dagger
- having any item or being a dwarf makes digging just as good as spell digging
- being actually good at digging is faster than spell digging
- using earthquakes for bigger projects still helps but has other drawbacks

[quarague]

Just another idea: implementing a spell that takes multiple turns to cast might be awkward. Instead, both the spell and wand could just temporarily increase your digging level by 1 for a few turns, similar to temporary resistances. Then you can also combine digging spells with a shovel for even faster dig results and it seems more natural that even with a spell digging takes a few turns.

[Derakon]

Keep in mind that half the classes don't get access to the spell and thus are forced to rely on digging (or wands, or Rings of Delving).

Also, while basic shovels aren't great at digging, every other digging implement is at least passable.

[bio_hazard]

I like the idea of digging spells taking more than one turn. "The wall begins to melt"... then 2 turns later "The wall has melted!"

Alternatively/additionally, make different hardnesses of rock take more castings of the spell.

Another thing that might make digging a little more interesting would be to apply the aggravate flag when actively digging. Ring of Delving would cancel this effect, making the ring a little more useful. Maybe give Delving to some ego items as well (Dwarven armors for example).

[Derakon]

If you want to slow down digging spells, the simplest method would be to have them degrade the rock iteratively. So you'd go from a Granite Wall to a Cracked Granite Wall to Rubble to empty space. Magma veins could be dug through in one cast, quartz in two.

[bio_hazard]

If you want to slow down digging spells, the simplest method would be to have them degrade the rock iteratively. So you'd go from a Granite Wall to a Cracked Granite Wall to Rubble to empty space. Magma veins could be dug through in one cast, quartz in two.

This would be awesome if it could be applied to wall-breaking monsters as well!

[mushroom patch]

Digging is totally unrealistic craziness -- the hard part of digging isn't even breaking up the material, it's removing it...

But, if you have digging in the game, which at this point you must, I agree that existing diggers are ridiculously inefficient. There should be ego picks that break down walls in one shot, otherwise there's no point in carrying picks -- big melee weapons are almost as good anyway.

re: spells being too fast, I have to disagree. If anything, they're too slow. The multitile dig spells/wands of crawl are much more convenient and interesting from a gameplay perspective. They also present the player with a trade-off in terms of control vs. digging by manual labor.

[PowerWyrm]

Considering there are Rings of Digging now that not only improve digging but can also be activated for stone to mud, I don't see the points of digging tools anymore, even more since you have to equip them which brings more tedium.

[Nick]

Considering there are Rings of Digging now that not only improve digging but can also be activated for stone to mud, I don't see the points of digging tools anymore

To kill Morgoth.

[fizzix]

Really this discussion needs to occur in the broader concept of "what do we want to do with terrain?" Digging lets the player shape the terrain however they like. Making things undiggable forces the player to deal with the terrain that is already there. Personally, I like digging for stuff such as generating shortcuts between passages, but don't like it for scummy purposes such as anti-summoning corridors. There is something enjoyable about shaping the terrain in preparation for battle, though.

[half]

If you want to slow down digging spells, the simplest method would be to have them degrade the rock iteratively. So you'd go from a Granite Wall to a Cracked Granite Wall to Rubble to empty space. Magma veins could be dug through in one cast, quartz in two.

This is basically the Sil approach. We go from wall to rubble or rubble to floor. So it takes two turns to dig through a wall. Digging is only possible with special digging items and digging through granite is only possible with magical ones. As of Sil 1.2, we just check inventory for a digger, rather than requiring that you spend keystrokes and turns wielding it.

I actually got the two turn idea from Dungeons of Doom, a very old Mac roguelike, which had pushable boulders as the intermediate step rather than rubble, which was quite fun and interesting.

[PowerWyrm]

To kill Morgoth.

I thought bare fists were enough for that

[Bogatyr]

but don't like it for scummy purposes such as anti-summoning corridors.

To each his own, I consider preparing pillars and ASCs essential and fun tactics. The current turn cost is already quite enough of a cost, making it both multi-turn and multi-phase seems pointless.

There is something enjoyable about shaping the terrain in preparation for battle, though.

Yes. And speaking of which, let's bring back the wand of wall building. God, that thing was fun. Maybe with the added enhancement that the walls are "thin" and can be broken though in a few turns by monsters, or that they are not stone but magical force fields and expire in some number of turns.

[mushroom patch]

Seconded re: wall building wands and force fields. Of course, if experience with Starcraft is any indication, any race that can make use of force fields is likely to be OP...

[AnonymousHero]

Seconded re: wall building wands and force fields. Of course, if experience with Starcraft is any indication, any race that can make use of force fields is likely to be OP...

Pfft. I'm just waiting for the Wand of Infestation.