Kelek's Grimoire of Power for Rogues

[Bombadil]

This book appears pretty much useless for a rogue. The only spell in there that is legible is Bedlam (confusion ball).

Space is becoming a premium now for my rogue:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16602

Should I just get rid of this book and save the space?

[Estie]

Yes. (filling up to 10 chars)

[Derakon]

Yep. Not all books are useful for all classes. Paladins don't like either Holy Infusions or Purifications and Healings, for example.

[Zikke]

Raal's also leaves a lot to be desired for Rogues. Squelch city.

[MattB]

Typical! Within ten minutes of reading this post, guess what my rogue found on dlvl12?

I'm blaming you, Bombadil, for ruining a perfectly good 'superb' level!

[Estie]

Wow that was not nice of you, Bombadil! Without no-selling, you´d at least get the value of a stat potion for it.

[Mark]

Yep. Not all books are useful for all classes. Paladins don't like either Holy Infusions or Purifications and Healings, for example.

This raises an interesting question. If the books are pending a redesign, should every book be (more or less) worth an inventory slot for every (applicable) class?

Yes: finding every book feels good
No: why spread fewer spells (for non priest/Mage classes) over more slots?

Which would be preferable I wonder.

Related: with no selling turned on, could/should useless spell books (e.g. Holy spell books when playing arcane casters) be auto-squelched/never generated?). Would probably create less irrelevant level feelings (with the way they work now)

[Zikke]

Here's another brain storm idea just for the sake of thinking outside the box:

Why do we need to limit each spellbook to 5-8 spells? It could be 14 spells or some other number.


Here's another brain storm idea:

Can we add the spell "Brain Storm"?

[Nick]

In restructured V, everything to do with books is an edit file change.

Less books for half casters is certainly a possibility, with spells redistributed as required.

[Maddz]

OK, here's a thought: books you can buy in town contain spells usable by all the classes that can use that specific book. More powerful books you find in the dungeon are specific to a spell casting class. So, you'd have books usable by mages only, by rogues only and so on.

This would allow removing spells only used by a specific class to a specific dungeon-find book, and hence condensing the town books. In fact, if you increase the number of slots per book, you could have only 1 or 2 books of each type purchasable in town - that includes all the spells useable by a magic-using type or all spells usable by a prayer-using type.

[Azrad]

Yep. Not all books are useful for all classes. Paladins don't like either Holy Infusions or Purifications and Healings, for example.

I kinda liked having Purifications around. The two heal spells were useless compared to Exorcism's heal spell, but restoration was handy after a battle and some stats were lowered. Saved up a lot of mushrooms of vigor as a result which helped me picked up the win on Morgoth.

[Monkey Face]

OK, here's a thought: books you can buy in town contain spells usable by all the classes that can use that specific book. More powerful books you find in the dungeon are specific to a spell casting class. So, you'd have books usable by mages only, by rogues only and so on.

This would allow removing spells only used by a specific class to a specific dungeon-find book, and hence condensing the town books. In fact, if you increase the number of slots per book, you could have only 1 or 2 books of each type purchasable in town - that includes all the spells useable by a magic-using type or all spells usable by a prayer-using type.

I'm not sure I like that. It makes inventory management somewhat easier for all classes except warriors.

[Maddz]

And what's wrong with making inventory management easier for magic-using classes? In any case, your inventory is limited by your strength rating not the number of slots you have available. I have to use 9 inventory slots for the spells I routinely use -

Book 1: I use Phase Door* & Detect Traps etc*
Book 2: I use Teleport*
Book 3: I use Turn Stone to Mud, Fire Bolt* & Identify*
Book 4: I use Haste Self*
Book 5: I use Resistance* & Shield*
Book 6: I use Meteor Storm & Rift
Book 7: I use Word of Recall* & Rune of Protection
Book 8: I use Elemental Brand
Book 9: I use Rend Soul, Chaos Strike and Mana Storm*

Which is 17 spells used at least occasionally out of 49 legible spells in 54 slots. (The starred spells I use at least once every trip to the dungeon, other less rarely, so potentially I can leave books 6 & 8 at home if it wasn't for the fact my home is full.) FWIW, I'm playing a high-elf mage.

Personally, I find inventory management and home management tedious and would very much prefer to not have to bother overmuch with it (apart from clearing out less useful artifacts every so often), which is why I'd like very much like to see an expanded home (multi-page) and the return of the 99 item stack. At the moment, I'm having to use inventory as a back-up to my home because of the 40 item stack limit and frankly I'm tired of having to do that.

So yes, revamping the magic system so that all spells are useful (at least some of the time) is a good idea, and if that has the effect of pruning the spell list and reducing the number of books mages and priests have to lug around, then I'm all for it.

[Derakon]

The problem with removing inventory constraints is that the game is balanced around the player not being able to carry everything they want to carry. Weight is absolutely not the primary constraint in the mid- and late-game; basically as soon as you start getting permanent speed boosts, you stop worrying much about how much you're carrying.

If you make it so that spellcasters need fewer slots to get the same number of useful effects, then you're giving them a substantial power boost. By comparison, warriors have no choice but to dedicate individual slots to individual powers.

As for the home, I suspect that it will be getting expanded...after the refactoring.

[AnonymousHero]

Personally, I find inventory management and home management tedious and would very much prefer to not have to bother overmuch with it (apart from clearing out less useful artifacts every so often), which is why I'd like very much like to see an expanded home (multi-page) and the return of the 99 item stack. At the moment, I'm having to use inventory as a back-up to my home because of the 40 item stack limit and frankly I'm tired of having to do that.

So yes, revamping the magic system so that all spells are useful (at least some of the time) is a good idea, and if that has the effect of pruning the spell list and reducing the number of books mages and priests have to lug around, then I'm all for it.

Like Derakon said, the game's balanced around the current inventory limitations, so greatly expanding inventory (indirectly, via "compressing" the spellbooks) would require other changes along with it. I would not support it, for that reason. Greatly expanding the home capacity (which I support) would not have such effects on the game balance since you can't interact with it in any situation where it matters tactically. I suppose expanding the home would lead to much easier hoarding of consumables for the final fight(s), but I think wise players probably already prioritize those above all else anyway, so it effectively just makes it easier for players who are new to the game.

I find that most of my annoyance with the inventory comes from having to use part of it as an extension to the home. (Whether that makes sense or not. I tend to keep carrying lower-value randarts until home + inventory capacity becomes so constrained that I just have to ditch things. Obviously I don't give a second though to tossing low-grade randarts, but when you get to the more exotic powers/resists/etc. it can get a little frustrating to figure out what it your next-to-ditch piece of equipment.)