Elements, resistances and side effects

[m0stlym0nk]

My plan for Pyrel here is to have a resistance grid shown in the left-hand sidebar at all times:

A resistance that is "colored in" is permanently resisted; the plan is to make them boxed if the player has temporary resistance, and bolded for immunity (though I grant this is not yet implemented). This better-communicates the quaternary nature of Angband resistances (nothing/permanent/temporary/immunity). Additionally, mousing over the resistance grid ought to tell the player how much damage they take from that element (e.g. "You take only 1/3rd normal damage from fire"). When the player puts on an additional resistance source and a) sees no change in the grid, and b) sees the mouseover tooltip tell them the same thing, they should be able to figure out that resistances don't stack.

Yeah, totally the right line of thinking, Derakon. And you hit a key point that I keep thinking as well: the idea of non-stack and double-res-lows really isn't that difficult a concept. Hypothetically explained once in just a sentence or two, the player will get it - it's a totally understandable idea. We just need good ways, perhaps, to get the message across.

[Nomad]

A while back (yikes, just dug up the post and it was 2010) I suggested a display in the sidebar to show the state of your base four resistances, to make the stacking of permanent and temporary sources more obvious. Something like this:

[BC=black]             
 rAcid  [COLOR="#C00000"]----[/COLOR] 
 rElec  [COLOR="#FFFF00"]x1/3[/COLOR] 
 rFire  [COLOR="#00FF00"]x1/9[/COLOR] 
 rCold  [COLOR="#008040"]****[/COLOR] 
             [/BC]

Would be pretty crowded to add the higher resists, though. But if we keep the current system where only the base four have stacking with temporary sources, you could combine it with Derakon's version, like so:

[BC=black]             
 rAcid  [COLOR="#C00000"]----[/COLOR] 
 rElec  [COLOR="#FFFF00"]x1/3[/COLOR] 
 rFire  [COLOR="#00FF00"]x1/9[/COLOR] 
 rCold  [COLOR="#008040"]****[/COLOR] 
             
 P [COLOR="#FF8000"]L[/COLOR] D [COLOR="#FFFF00"]So[/COLOR] Sh 
  [COLOR="#9020FF"]Nx[/COLOR] [COLOR="#00FF00"]Nt[/COLOR] C [COLOR="#FF00FF"]D[/COLOR]  
             [/BC]

[MattB]

A while back (yikes, just dug up the post and it was 2010) I suggested a display in the sidebar to show the state of your base four resistances, to make the stacking of permanent and temporary sources more obvious. Something like this:

Would be pretty crowded to add the higher resists, though. But if we keep the current system where only the base four have stacking with temporary sources, you could combine it with Derakon's version, like so:

I like, but shouldn't Poison be with the basic 4 (as it can be double-resisted)?

[Nomad]

I like, but shouldn't Poison be with the basic 4 (as it can be double-resisted)?

True, you're probably right. But as always, it's an annoying special case that doesn't quite fit in one category or the other. If we're shooting for more simplicity and consistency, I think double poison resistance should probably be removed and poison brought more in line with the other higher elements. (Or you could promote it to join the base resists, but that would mean raising the damage cap to 1600, and that much damage with poisoning on top would be brutal. It makes more sense to categorise it as a higher resist, IMO.)

[myshkin]

True, you're probably right. But as always, it's an annoying special case that doesn't quite fit in one category or the other. If we're shooting for more simplicity and consistency, I think double poison resistance should probably be removed and poison brought more in line with the other higher elements. (Or you could promote it to join the base resists, but that would mean raising the damage cap to 1600, and that much damage with poisoning on top would be brutal. It makes more sense to categorise it as a higher resist, IMO.)

I think it's worth preserving in some fashion the special added danger that the drolem and AMHD present. Probably this is not compatible with both shifting more of poison's damage to subsequent turns and having CCW and other potions set the poison counter to zero in one turn. It may also not be compatible with treating poison as a higher element, if high resist damage protection settles in above 1/3, but possibly tweaking damage/HP for those two monsters would make them pose the right amount of danger.

[Nick]

it's an annoying special case that doesn't quite fit in one category or the other.

I actually really like Poison as it is. The annoyance of poisonous worm masses that breed, the ignominy of dying to a poison spike trap, the irritation with air hounds, the fear of AMHDs, the utter terror when you walk around a corner and find an innocuous-looking green 'g', the relief at finding a source of RPoison - what's not to like?

Seriously, I think it works really well gameplay-wise. While clarifying things is certainly a laudable aim, I think there should also be some recognition of the commitment of people who suffer a devastating loss of a character to an unexpected feature, and then still come back for more. But then I am evil.

[Nomad]

I actually really like Poison as it is. The annoyance of poisonous worm masses that breed, the ignominy of dying to a poison spike trap, the irritation with air hounds, the fear of AMHDs, the utter terror when you walk around a corner and find an innocuous-looking green 'g', the relief at finding a source of RPoison - what's not to like?

Seriously, I think it works really well gameplay-wise. While clarifying things is certainly a laudable aim, I think there should also be some recognition of the commitment of people who suffer a devastating loss of a character to an unexpected feature, and then still come back for more. But then I am evil.

Well, I'm actually on board for just removing the potion of Resist Poison and otherwise leaving all features as-is. But possibly I'm eviller.

In all seriousness, I feel like it's only that temporary double resistance that makes its categorisation confusing - I don't see why it can't be a higher resist but keep the 800 damage cap. "Base elements have a damage cap of 1600, immunities and temporary resistance; higher elements have variable damage caps and only permanent resistance," seems like enough consistency for me.

You could tweak the availability of rings of rPoison to compensate for the removal of the potion, but I don't know that it's all that necessary; I don't seem to find many Resist Poison potions anyway, and it's vanishingly rare I'm actually carrying one and remember to drink it at a useful time, so the game is certainly playable in its current state without them.

[debo]

In Sil, venom against the player manifests in the poison counter -- it's not raw damage.

In the early game, most sources of poison damage will be a significant %age of your HP, depending on how frail your dude is. It's pretty common for a distended spider to get your poison counter up to 75%-150% of your maxHP if you aren't careful. The only cure you have for poison at that stage is !Slow Poison, which only halves the counter.

In the lategame, some dudes can pretty easily tick your counter up beyond your max HP (esp. the "final" final boss C), but by then you have probably have !Miruvor which totally resets the counter. (I've always thought it would be maybe a bit more interesting if !Miruvor only set it to 25% or something, but I do appreciate the fact it works that way when it saves my life

The thing I sort of like about poison in Sil is that it gives you a small number of turns to react, which is kind of nerve-wracking. IF I have 20HP left and suddenly hit a poison counter of 24, I'm probably going to lose most of my remaining HP next round. Do I quaff !Slow poison and risk getting hit again for even more poison damage? Do I run? Etc.

The potential to die in 2-3 turns is, in my opinion, a lot more interesting than "Something breathes poison! (offscreen). You die..."

These things that breathe 1600HP, 800HP when you can only really have maybe 2/3rds of that has always been sort of stupid to me. Why not just have 5 different instadeath spells that don't work when you have one of 5 flavors of hold life? It might be more interesting if even just one of these (poison) incremented a poison counter a-la Sil, which discharges some large percentage of its damage each round. Get rid of things that insta-cure poison, also, and maybe now it gets a bit more interesting?

i.e. if a drolem breathes 800dmg of poison at me, and sets my poison counter to 800 when I'm sitting at 400HP, maybe I have 2 rounds to react before dying. I will still probably die, but at least there's a situation there, instead of "oh shit I wish I had ESP / ground 30F for =rP+ / remembered to cast detect dudes"

[Nick]

In all seriousness, I feel like it's only that temporary double resistance that makes its categorisation confusing - I don't see why it can't be a higher resist but keep the 800 damage cap. "Base elements have a damage cap of 1600, immunities and temporary resistance; higher elements have variable damage caps and only permanent resistance," seems like enough consistency for me.

You could tweak the availability of rings of rPoison to compensate for the removal of the potion, but I don't know that it's all that necessary; I don't seem to find many Resist Poison potions anyway, and it's vanishingly rare I'm actually carrying one and remember to drink it at a useful time, so the game is certainly playable in its current state without them.

The temporary resist also comes from mage spells, and the activation for Colluin, not that that really hurts your argument.

I'm still not convinced that this simplification is necessary, though. The current situation gives Poison an interesting transitional status - a kind of gateway drug to the world of Nexus and Chaos

[Nick]

The thing I sort of like about poison in Sil is that it gives you a small number of turns to react, which is kind of nerve-wracking. IF I have 20HP left and suddenly hit a poison counter of 24, I'm probably going to lose most of my remaining HP next round. Do I quaff !Slow poison and risk getting hit again for even more poison damage? Do I run? Etc.

This is an excellent thing - for Sil. The thing is, Angband is not Sil, and isn't planning to be (I think I can see myself saying this nearly as much as the code restructure thing). It is by nature a longer game, and really intense situations tend to come about either by accident (and relatively rarely), or as a result of taking a deliberate risk like opening a vault.

I'm trying to think of an analogy, and the best I can come up with is Angband is like fishing for sharks, and Sil is like hunting a bear with a pocket knife and a pair of chopsticks. It's not great.

The potential to die in 2-3 turns is, in my opinion, a lot more interesting than "Something breathes poison! (offscreen). You die..."

Are you kidding? I love that! Especially when it happens to other people.

These things that breathe 1600HP, 800HP when you can only really have maybe 2/3rds of that has always been sort of stupid to me.

Seems OK to me - it just forces you to have the resistance or risk being one-shotted. Plus you get the nice thing with really powerful enemies that their breaths don't get weaker until you've hurt them quite badly.

I do like the conical breath falls-off-with-distance setup, though - I think that adds some nice tactical play to the overall strategy.

[debo]

I do like the conical breath falls-off-with-distance setup, though - I think that adds some nice tactical play to the overall strategy.

Yeah, this achieves sort of the same thing in a less complicated way. I think it would be rad if this went in -- It's another way of giving you some time to react, and arguably gives you even more time to do so, assuming you weren't blunk next to a big breather.

To be clear, I don't think it's bad for there to be instakill breaths in the game. I just think it's weird that so many of them work the exact same way (resist this or MEGA DAMAGE).

I also don't see how a poison counter specifically is something that is "good for sil" -- certainly there are a bunch of features in Sil that I don't think would fit in V, but V already has a counter that is basically a lark. Might be interesting to think of some other ways to utilize it? 2-3 turns to react or die is still intense, just a different kind of intensity.

[Magnate]

Are you kidding? I love that! Especially when it happens to other people.

<sound of any lingering doubts wooshing out of the window>

[fizzix]

So since we're talking about drolems, it should be no surprise that I think they are indicative of poor game design.

I'm completely fine with something that poses an extreme danger, perhaps with the possibility of instant death if you don't have the special resistance for whatever it has. A good example of this design is the homunculus, which will probably kill you if you let it melee you and you don't have free action. Some of the hound groups fit this category also.

I'm also fine with monsters that are extremely difficult, or even impossible to deal with. Possibly ones that will trash your equipment as well. Stuff like rot jellies or colbrans are examples of this.

I'm also ok with monsters that are not detectable by normal means for most characters, either because they are invisible, or mindless or whatnot.

What I'm not ok with is all three occurring at the same time in the same monster. The drolem is fast, has a ton of HP, breathes poison likely for more than your max HP, and is undetectable by priests and paladins. It is not a fun challenge to deal with, since dealing with a drolem means teleporting away (either you or it) and then promptly leaving the level. There's never the thought process of "hmm, if I get a shot off maybe I'll kill it before it breathes." The drolem, or a drolem type heavy breather monster would be far better if it:

moved slowly, or was stationary

Had 300-600 HP instead of 2000

Was exceptionally vulnerable to stuff like confusion or sleep

Was easily detectable, perhaps it has a large light radius. It certainly shouldn't be both non-evil and mindless.

AMHDs are bad design because they are so much harder than the normal coloured versions. Those have 600-800 HP, the AMHD has 1800. None of the weaker dragons (baby, young, mature) have such a step up between them and the multi-hued. Also, the AMHD resists almost every element, so it's effective HP is even higher. This is bad design as well.

If we want dangerous monsters that can end you if you aren't paying attention, that's fine. I'm all for that. I don't like ones that can end you *and* there's no real decision process of how to handle it, besides run away. The colbran is a much more interesting monster than the AMHD, because it won't kill you. It'll just destroy your wands and rods.

[Magnate]

If we want dangerous monsters that can end you if you aren't paying attention, that's fine. I'm all for that. I don't like ones that can end you *and* there's no real decision process of how to handle it, besides run away. The colbran is a much more interesting monster than the AMHD, because it won't kill you. It'll just destroy your wands and rods.

I don't disagree with any of your points, but if I had kept the same monster memory for my entire Angband career I think colbrans would have killed more of my ancestors than almost anything else. Only the dark elven sorceror looms larger in my hatred, but those are much less common. Perhaps my playstyle makes me especially vulnerable to fast, high-damage b*****ds.

[Derakon]

Meanwhile, I don't think I've ever been killed by a drolem, and when I got killed by AMHDs I deserved it, every time. The game even warns you that AMHDs are specifically dangerous: the flavor text says "Few live to see another." None of the other ancient dragons have such a warning.

You want to know what makes drolems balanced? They're very slow to wake up. Their alertness is 80, compared to, say, 10 for a Berserker or 15 for a Greater Basilisk. It's the same thing that makes Black Reavers okay -- they're just really not likely to wake up unless you piss them off. And I mean, if you're running around with bad stealth and lousy monster detection and aren't paying attention to your sight lines then frankly at some point the game has to stop giving you freebies. Players have to learn not to play recklessly somehow, right?