Grinding - should it be prevented?

[Derakon]

And also, just being on level 98 means that you must kill Sauron on the next level and having killed Sauron you will have to kill Morgoth on the level after that, right? Since you cannot replay any level, ever.

Correct.

I would not like angband as much as I do if I could not play it the way we can play now(be it grinding or not grinding).

But I can understand the will to make birth options with "no grind" in mind, like fixed levels and/or some turn count. But for me this would be optional, not forced on main game.

I think one of the reasons why forced-descent is popular with the devs is that they have to balance the game against something, and it becomes impossible to e.g. generate statistics of how common items are / ought to be when the player is allowed to play for an arbitrarily long time.

For my own part, I appreciate the fact that I'm not allowed to play for an arbitrarily long time. Once I get to the bottom, that's it, I have to take on Sauron and Morgoth whether or not I feel ready. That makes things more interesting for me because the end becomes a less certain thing. However, I can appreciate that other players would not want to proceed until they feel ready, even if that means grinding for (say) 40 Potions of Life first...

[MattB]

For my own part, I appreciate the fact that I'm not allowed to play for an arbitrarily long time. Once I get to the bottom, that's it, I have to take on Sauron and Morgoth whether or not I feel ready. That makes things more interesting for me because the end becomes a less certain thing. However, I can appreciate that other players would not want to proceed until they feel ready, even if that means grinding for (say) 40 Potions of Life first...

I am totally against the idea of not being allowed to play at the speed you like. However, there is a kind of built-in safeguard against excessive grinding in that it would be REALLY dangerous to accrue 40 Potions of Life (at least without killing Morgoth first). Has anyone ever managed that?

[Derakon]

I am totally against the idea of not being allowed to play at the speed you like. However, there is a kind of built-in safeguard against excessive grinding in that it would be REALLY dangerous to accrue 40 Potions of Life (at least without killing Morgoth first). Has anyone ever managed that?

That was intended to be hyperbolic; I'm not aware of anyone getting anywhere near that many. However, I have seen people posting dumps with 15-20 potions of *Healing* post-Morgoth, which is still pretty excessive.

[Patashu]

I think the unstated compromise is:
1) Make the game be no-grinding, balance it around no-grinding, etc
2) Put in a birth option for no-grinding to be turned back off (previous versions of Angband) for those who want to play the game that way

[LostTemplar]

Make the game be no-grinding, balance it around no-grinding, etc

What is the definition of "no grinding" ? Does it mean that resourses are limited, no matter what player do. If so I would call it "ultra grinding", because player will want to get every single item possible.

[Patashu]

What is the definition of "no grinding" ? Does it mean that resourses are limited, no matter what player do. If so I would call it "ultra grinding", because player will want to get every single item possible.

Two examples:

-Sil has a 'min depth' clock - over time, the 'min depth' you can land on becomes deeper into the dungeon. If taking a staircase would put you shallower than the 'min depth' you arrive on the min depth. Eventually the next staircase you take forces you to confront the end of the game. Even though it has an Angband style infinite dungeon you can't grind it.

-Brogue has a 'hunger' clock - food can (I believe, correct me if wrong) be only found on new levels, there are a limited number of levels in the dungeon and if you run out of food you lose HP until you find more food.

Try one of these roguelikes to see how the gameplay changes compared to Angband.

[LostTemplar]

Your example is a simple time limit, it actually provokes grinding. One, who grind more in a given time wins. Time limit is a common practice among roguelike games.

I have considered grinding problem, concerning an attempt to make my own roguelike for a long time and found no simple solution here.
Basically if some resource is needed for a win, it will be grinded for, limiting the resource only make things worse for me, since it leads to kill every monster and other unrealistic behaviour. Angband is better then other roguelikes in this respect IMHO, since resources are unlimited you are not forced to be greedy, can play as you like and in case you miss something important it is never too late to get it.

[half]

Your example is a simple time limit, it actually provokes grinding. One, who grind more in a given time wins. Time limit is a common practice among roguelike games.

I have considered grinding problem, concerning an attempt to make my own roguelike for a long time and found no simple solution here.
Basically if some resource is needed for a win, it will be grinded for, limiting the resource only make things worse for me, since it leads to kill every monster and other unrealistic behaviour. Angband is better then other roguelikes in this respect IMHO, since resources are unlimited you are not forced to be greedy, can play as you like and in case you miss something important it is never too late to get it.

I'm very puzzled by this comment. I can only imagine that we are using the term 'grind' in different ways and thus talking past each other. I don't know anyone else who thinks Vanilla is good regarding minimizing grinding. Indeed it is generally *infamous* for being bad for it (e.g. it is routinely mocked for it in other roguelike communities).

It seems like you are using 'the game encourages grinding' to mean: 'the game encourages you to try to modify your play style to get a resource'. I think the usual meaning is that 'it encourages some kind of boring and very repetitive play over long periods of time to get a resource'.

Does anyone else think that Sil has more of a problem with grinding than Vanilla Angband?

[buzzkill]

-Brogue has a 'hunger' clock - food can (I believe, correct me if wrong) be only found on new levels, there are a limited number of levels in the dungeon and if you run out of food you lose HP until you find more food.

Brogue has a rather tight food clock & persistent levels. If you screw around too long, you will starve to death, which I believe is instant. Not sure since I haven't starved in a while since I tend not to screw around.

On the up side, there is no reason to screw around in Brogue, since "scumming" is impossible. Explored levels revisited will be empty if you stay on the "power curve" and clear levels. If you fall off the power curve then previously explored level were probably fled from (down, since fleeing upward gains you nothing) and something you wouldn't normally want to return to.

Also, and the key to making all this work, Brogue has carefully metered food drops. You will find food at random, but somewhat regular intervals & enough food to win the game is guaranteed, providing you don't miss any. The food clock gets tweaked almost every release, a testament to just how fragile a mechanic it is to balance in an already well balanced game.

[LostTemplar]

it encourages some kind of boring and very repetitive play over long periods of time to get a resource

Yes, just this, in Angband I can just dive to dlvl 98 and then maybe, if I was unlucky with drops or have low lvl I have to grind for a short while (e.g. clear 2 or 3 dragon pits) to gain what I need for a win.

In Sil I miss something here, e.g. If I skip early levels and early monsters, I loose some easy exp. Not to say it is huge problem really, but it provokes "grinding".

Well, in Angband one can grind like hell, but it is suboptimal playstyle, why punish someone, who already punishes himself. Angband have IMHO lowest level of required grinding of all other roguelike, and highest level of possible grinding, good thing IMHO, a lot of freedom. Freedom is the best thing in Angband, player can play really bad and ineffective, but still think, he plays good, then learn how to play better and get a sense of achivement. Other games force the only way to play, and immediately punish a wrong playstyle with death, Angband does not do this, it punishes bad play with tedium boredom and frustration.

[half]

Yes, just this, in Angband I can just dive to dlvl 98 and then maybe, if I was unlucky with drops or have low lvl I have to grind for a short while (e.g. clear 2 or 3 dragon pits) to gain what I need for a win.

In Sil I miss something here, e.g. If I skip early levels and early monsters, I loose some easy exp. Not to say it is huge problem really, but it provokes "grinding".

I'm still puzzled then. How is encouraging you to encounter and/or kill a wide variety a enemies a case of 'boring and very repetitive play'. I would have thought it was *discouraging* that (it discourages going after the same type of enemy a lot, or playing at the same depth a lot etc).

Angband does not do this, it punishes bad play with tedium boredom and frustration.

And yet many people play that way. I certainly don't want to give players 'tedium and boredom and frustration' so I don't use that as the stick to punish bad play. More traditionally, I have bad play make you more likely to lose. I think this is good game design. In fact, like some others, I even wonder to what degree something is a game at all if borg-like play increases your success chances. (I'm not sure if it does overall in Vanilla for humans, but the fact that the Borg does noticeably well out of that style is depressing).

[LostTemplar]

Well, I cannot answer actually, maybe just this

I feel old. Maybe I should retire from playing angband or at least commenting anymore. Last comment before I go away at least semi-permanently: I feel that forced descend is same as raping the core angband, game would not be angband anymore.

Applys to myself as well. I allways played Angband (mostly FAangband) in a very fast manner with low turn count compared to ladder average, however I would have never played it if it had any type of tight time limit.

[AnonymousHero]

I can't comment on the "should" part (that's Philosophy), but I think you "could" with my suggestion in the other thread.

I'm sure it's not original, but if it is I want all the credit.

[Estie]

Following on from the monster "tears" thread I thought I'd start a new topic on this particular question.

I assume that the forced descent is designed to prevent the ability to grind xp and gear. I'm wondering what the thinking is behind the change.

Is it so that the player will have to make do with what he has found and deal with dangerous monsters as he finds them more often to get to the highest character levels?

Angband already has a couple of anti-grinding mechanisms already in that xp is reduced from monsters as you level up, the xp needed each level is not increased in a linear fashion and spending too long at lower levels increases the chance of an out of depth monster killing you.

I think the main problem at the moment is that you are forced to grind for consumables for the final fights. This I think should definitely be fixed.

Btw just checking that I'm right in that what you mean by "forced descent" is that there are only down stairs available. Or is it like Sil where you can only find your way back to a certain depth after a while?

The thinking behind forced descent wasnt anything about grinding. It was simply a split up of ironmans 2 components, 1. no upstairs and 2. no shop, done by Fizzix I believe.

Monster xp reduced for higher level characters and above-linear xp needed for higher levels are not ANTI-gring mechanisms, they are GRIND-mechanisms. If you remove them, you need less grinding to win the game.

If you need to grind for consumables for the last fights, then you must have a very weird playstyle. I certainly dont, to the contrary, I find the game to be rather on the generous side with healing potions.

In any case, there are birth options for anyones prefered playstyle, wether they want to be able to repeat levels or not. I can see adding another option to speed up the early game (call it "fast start" or something, with the character starting at levl 10 and accsess to dlvl 20 or whatever), but as for your topic title, grinding already is prevented, you just need to pick the right birth options.

[MattB]

I feel old. Maybe I should retire from playing angband or at least commenting anymore. Last comment before I go away at least semi-permanently: I feel that forced descend is same as raping the core angband, game would not be angband anymore.

You don't think he actually meant it, do you?...

Oook without Timo just doesn't feel complete.

If you're out there listening somewhere Timo, you've given me loads of brilliant advice. Please come back!