Grinding - should it be prevented?

[TJS]

Following on from the monster "tears" thread I thought I'd start a new topic on this particular question.

I assume that the forced descent is designed to prevent the ability to grind xp and gear. I'm wondering what the thinking is behind the change.

Is it so that the player will have to make do with what he has found and deal with dangerous monsters as he finds them more often to get to the highest character levels?

Angband already has a couple of anti-grinding mechanisms already in that xp is reduced from monsters as you level up, the xp needed each level is not increased in a linear fashion and spending too long at lower levels increases the chance of an out of depth monster killing you.

I think the main problem at the moment is that you are forced to grind for consumables for the final fights. This I think should definitely be fixed.

Btw just checking that I'm right in that what you mean by "forced descent" is that there are only down stairs available. Or is it like Sil where you can only find your way back to a certain depth after a while?

[emulord]

I feel that grinding SHOULD NOT be prevented. Angband is a game about mitigating risk, and that is a very rare game design.

Needing items to advance + quadratic exp requirements + out of depth monsters is a great mixture of gameplay. Diving is an emergent behavior, not one we should force/restrict innately.

[Nick]

FI assume that the forced descent is designed to prevent the ability to grind xp and gear. I'm wondering what the thinking is behind the change.

Is it so that the player will have to make do with what he has found and deal with dangerous monsters as he finds them more often to get to the highest character levels?

Actually I was kind of coming from the opposite direction.

I was thinking about something that (IIRC) half said on one of the Sil threads - that people have a lot of competition for their time, from games and other things. So this is more aimed at new players - so they don't start off the game wandering a first few levels of dull corridors filled with variegated centipedes that die if you spit on them.

Now that's a complete caricature. But I think there is an issue, reflected in the fact that people used not to "dive", and now it's standard practice. So I was looking to produce the diving experience by default, but with the option for Timo not to

The forced descent comment has been kind of seized on - I guess because it's the only non-vague thing I said - but the last thing I'm trying to do is tell people that they're doing it wrong.

[MattB]

I feel that grinding SHOULD NOT be prevented. Angband is a game about mitigating risk, and that is a very rare game design.

Needing items to advance + quadratic exp requirements + out of depth monsters is a great mixture of gameplay. Diving is an emergent behavior, not one we should force/restrict innately.

I'll add my +1 to this comment.

I agree wholeheartedly with every word emulord said.

(Sorry, not a very contentious post, I admit!)

[LostTemplar]

I was thinking about something that (IIRC) half said on one of the Sil threads - that people have a lot of competition for their time, from games and other things. So this is more aimed at new players - so they don't start off the game wandering a first few levels of dull corridors filled with variegated centipedes that die if you spit on them.

This should be countered by removing dull corridors and centipedes.

Seriously, there is no reason but a terrible tradition, demanding any character in any role playing game to begin as a rat killer. Just make a starting character equal to an average lvl 35 angband character and get rid of all boring stuff. So 15 clvs and 50 dlvls will be ok probably.

[DREW]

Angband already has a couple of anti-grinding mechanisms already in that xp is reduced from monsters as you level up, the xp needed each level is not increased in a linear fashion and spending too long at lower levels increases the chance of an out of depth monster killing you.

How is that determined more or less?

My characters are all at dungeon levels lower than their character level, but at what ranges are you considered diving vs. normal vs. grinding?

[Derakon]

How is that determined more or less?

It's really just a result of the fact that the dungeon is, really, never safe. But if you spend a lot of time at a depth where you think you're safe, then you're liable to be surprised when the game throws something nasty at you.

Put another way, you're more likely to win if you take 5 chances that each have a 10% chance of killing you, than it is to take 100 chances that each have a 1% chance of killing you. Spending lots of time at shallow depths tends to equate to the latter proposition, while "diving" more parallels the former. For a diver, the odds in each encounter are worse, but because your power ramps up faster, the total number of encounters is vastly decreased.

[Patashu]

Put another way, you're more likely to win if you take 5 chances that each have a 10% chance of killing you, than it is to take 100 chances that each have a 1% chance of killing you. Spending lots of time at shallow depths tends to equate to the latter proposition, while "diving" more parallels the former. For a diver, the odds in each encounter are worse, but because your power ramps up faster, the total number of encounters is vastly decreased.

You also lose less time/personal investment if a 'diver' dies vs if a 'farmer' dies.

[Timo Pietilä]

Actually I was kind of coming from the opposite direction.

I was thinking about something that (IIRC) half said on one of the Sil threads - that people have a lot of competition for their time, from games and other things. So this is more aimed at new players - so they don't start off the game wandering a first few levels of dull corridors filled with variegated centipedes that die if you spit on them.

Now that's a complete caricature. But I think there is an issue, reflected in the fact that people used not to "dive", and now it's standard practice. So I was looking to produce the diving experience by default, but with the option for Timo not to

I feel old. Maybe I should retire from playing angband or at least commenting anymore. Last comment before I go away at least semi-permanently: I feel that forced descend is same as raping the core angband, game would not be angband anymore.

[TJS]

This should be countered by removing dull corridors and centipedes.

Seriously, there is no reason but a terrible tradition, demanding any character in any role playing game to begin as a rat killer. Just make a starting character equal to an average lvl 35 angband character and get rid of all boring stuff. So 15 clvs and 50 dlvls will be ok probably.

Agree that the earlier levels are boring because of the monster types, but also difficult because of the ludicrously weak starting characters. A hobbit mage starts on something like 7 hp and 2 mana and the first 5 or so character levels are very slow and repetitive. I think bumping starting characters to the equivalent of clev 5 and dlvl10 might make the early game faster and more interesting.

Reducing the total dungeon levels would help too as well I think (as well as reducing the number of consumables necessary for the final fights).

I'm still not 100% sure what forced descent actually is though.

[TJS]

I feel old. Maybe I should retire from playing angband or at least commenting anymore. Last comment before I go away at least semi-permanently: I feel that forced descend is same as raping the core angband, game would not be angband anymore.

I dunno Timo, the game has got to the stage where no one wanted to work on it because it has been dominated in recent years by people shouting "That's not how it has always been done" or "I prefer it the way it is" whenever anyone wants to make any changes. I don't think those arguments are good enough anymore.

It's better to say what are the good/bad points of any suggested changes from a gameplay perspective and as Nick says he will listen to any constructive feedback.

He's going to be completely rewriting the codebase and making loads of improvements, so I think it is only fair that he gets to change some gameplay stuff as well.

I have the feeling that you won't appreciate anything other than simple tweaking regardless of whether the game is improved or not as you enjoy playing the game the way it is. But that's cool because old versions are always going to still be available. I honestly don't get what the problem with that is.

[emulord]

Seriously, there is no reason but a terrible tradition, demanding any character in any role playing game to begin as a rat killer. Just make a starting character equal to an average lvl 35 angband character and get rid of all boring stuff. So 15 clvs and 50 dlvls will be ok probably.

I LOVE early game + low power scenarios. I played the crap out of Posband's early levels as centipedes and equally pathetic characters just to see "how powerful a blue icky thing can get".

Its much more easy to relate to a powerful character if you see their rise in power. Starting out as Hercules isn't as good as ascending to become Hercules.

[Derakon]

I'm still not 100% sure what forced descent actually is though.

In brief, a) you cannot go up (except to recall to town), and b) every time you go down (take down stairs or recall to dungeon) you end up at (max depth + 1).

As a result, recalling on level 98 means you must kill Sauron on level 99 before you can recall again -- and recalling on level 99 means you must kill Morgoth.

[thapper]

As a result, recalling on level 98 means you must kill Sauron on level 99 before you can recall again -- and recalling on level 99 means you must kill Morgoth.

And also, just being on level 98 means that you must kill Sauron on the next level and having killed Sauron you will have to kill Morgoth on the level after that, right? Since you cannot replay any level, ever.

[Lionmaruu]

I would not like angband as much as I do if I could not play it the way we can play now(be it grinding or not grinding).

But I can understand the will to make birth options with "no grind" in mind, like fixed levels and/or some turn count. But for me this would be optional, not forced on main game.