[User Guide Development] Questions

[Djabanete]

I'm back, and back to working on the manual! And for those who might be vaguely interested, I was absent due to campaigning for election to the local council, which result in a win by 554 votes, on a swing of 12.5%

Some questions related to the powers of ego-items:
1. IMPACT is the effect described in the obj_good spoiler as Cause Earthquake, I assume
2. Leon's work referred to items which conferred immunity to various elemental attacks, but there's nothing in the files I can see which could be this; is this reference a relic, or from another variant?
3. The only effect of Blessed weapons is to remove the penalty for clerics/paladins?

There are indeed items in Vanilla which grant immunity to one or more of the basic four elements (fire, cold, lightning, acid). The only items granting such immunities are artifacts.

[roustk]

2. Leon's work referred to items which conferred immunity to various elemental attacks, but there's nothing in the files I can see which could be this; is this reference a relic, or from another variant?

Do you mean immunities like IM_FIRE (Narya, Deathwreaker, Gothmog, Azaghal), IM_ACID (Thorin, Tuor, Ulmo), IM_ELEC (Vilya, Razorback, Taratol), and IM_COLD (Nenya, Eonwe)?

These items prevent all damage from those attacks, including secondary damage to inventory and equipment. For example, if you wear Narya you no longer have to worry about spellbooks burning up.

(The One actually has all four immunities.)

Kevin

[Nick]

I'm back, and back to working on the manual! And for those who might be vaguely interested, I was absent due to campaigning for election to the local council, which result in a win by 554 votes, on a swing of 12.5%

Ha! An incipient Sauron

1. IMPACT is the effect described in the obj_good spoiler as Cause Earthquake, I assume

Yes (although due to a quirk in the code, it never happens except with Grond).

3. The only effect of Blessed weapons is to remove the penalty for clerics/paladins?

Yes - although (Blessed) as an ego type also gives (IIRC) a random power and + to WIS.

[takkaria]

I'm back, and back to working on the manual! And for those who might be vaguely interested, I was absent due to campaigning for election to the local council, which result in a win by 554 votes, on a swing of 12.5%

Off-topic, but congrats! Glad it's not all just victories for the Tories...

[JamesDoyle]

Do you mean immunities like IM_FIRE (Narya, Deathwreaker, Gothmog, Azaghal), IM_ACID (Thorin, Tuor, Ulmo), IM_ELEC (Vilya, Razorback, Taratol), and IM_COLD (Nenya, Eonwe)?

These items prevent all damage from those attacks, including secondary damage to inventory and equipment. For example, if you wear Narya you no longer have to worry about spellbooks burning up.

(The One actually has all four immunities.)

Kevin

Thanks Kevin - that's very useful. From what you say it looks like immunity is only available from artifacts, not ego-items (which is sort of what I'd expect, but I hadn't looked at the artifacts info yet), so I'm safe to leave it until the artifacts page(s)

Yes - although (Blessed) as an ego type also gives (IIRC) a random power and + to WIS.

That's a useful reminder. The extra random resists/sustains aren't explicit [oh yes they are! - James] in the edit file, but are mentioned in some of the spoilers and info files. I'll be putting this info on the spoiler page of the User Manual, but it would be useful if someone could check I've listed it correctly

Ha! An incipient Sauron

Hopefully not - I don't think Sauron would agree with much in the Liberal Democrat manifesto. An incipient Mayor of Michel Delving perhaps - after all, I have been a mayor.

[JamesDoyle]

Working on a table of ego-items, and mining the edit file and other info for details, I have the following questions:

On *Slay* weapons: Undead, Demon and Dragon say KILL_x, but the others say SLAY_x. Should the latter be KILL; or is it intentional? And SLAY_x can be x2 or x3 depending on the target - is that hard-coded, I can't see a value that modifies it?

Some ego-items have a maximum bonus to armour, hit or dam in the C: line (e.g. Armour of Elvenkind) but others don't (e.g. Armour of Resist Acid), but the latter do seem to have bonuses when generated. Can someone clarify how these are generated?

What are the list of abilities that a random ability can be chosen from? And can a random resist be poison, nether or chaos, which are the only resists not specifically available on ego-items?

Why do morgul weapons have both LIGHT_CURSE and HEAVY_CURSE?

Ammunition of Slay Evil and of Venom cannot be Mithril; why not? Every other sort of ego-item ammunition can be

[zaimoni]

Working on a table of ego-items, and mining the edit file and other info for details, I have the following questions:

On *Slay* weapons: Undead, Demon and Dragon say KILL_x, but the others say SLAY_x. Should the latter be KILL; or is it intentional? And SLAY_x can be x2 or x3 depending on the target - is that hard-coded, I can't see a value that modifies it?

It is intentional; KILL_x is not implemented at all for the others.

All multipliers (both SLAY and KILL) are hardcoded. The intent is that common slays of less-than-impressive monsters are only 2x, while specific slays are 3x. (Evil includes: most giants, most dragons, most demons, most undead. Animals are unimpressive.)

Some ego-items have a maximum bonus to armour, hit or dam in the C: line (e.g. Armour of Elvenkind) but others don't (e.g. Armour of Resist Acid), but the latter do seem to have bonuses when generated. Can someone clarify how these are generated?

The bonuses in the ego item files are stacked on top of the normal bonuses for the item type in the object files.

What are the list of abilities that a random ability can be chosen from? And can a random resist be poison, nether or chaos, which are the only resists not specifically available on ego-items?

There are actually three such lists. The high-resist list does include random resists of poison, nether, and chaos.

Why do morgul weapons have both LIGHT_CURSE and HEAVY_CURSE?

I would have to examine the source carefully, but I suspect the stickycurse is completely controlled by the LIGHT_CURSE flag. HEAVY_CURSE is an amplifier to LIGHT_CURSE.

[JamesDoyle]

There are actually three such lists. The high-resist list does include random resists of poison, nether, and chaos.

I would have to examine the source carefully, but I suspect the stickycurse is completely controlled by the LIGHT_CURSE flag. HEAVY_CURSE is an amplifier to LIGHT_CURSE.

Thanks for the reply, zaimoni.

Couple of points of clarification:

do you mean three lists of resists? I'll have a look through spoiler files etc. to see if I can find them.

Not totally clear about how curses work, but I think I've got it enough from your explanation to at least write it up. I thought I'd seen an ego-item with HEAVY but not LIGHT_CURSE, but going back that's not the case, so my original understanding that there was an either/or situation has been modified!

[zaimoni]

do you mean three lists of resists? I'll have a look through spoiler files etc. to see if I can find them.

Yes.

One of the lists is just a random stat sustain, however. The other two are low resists (e.g., Free Action) and high resists (poison, chaos, etc.)

V3.0.9 does have a subtle issue (not sure whether it's a bug) that items with a random low resist that also have low resists by default, can end up with a no-effect random low resist duplicating their default low resists. Bows of Lothlorien come to mind.

[JamesDoyle]

So a Bow of Lothlorien could have Free Action twice?

[zaimoni]

So a Bow of Lothlorien could have Free Action twice?

No, but the object creation would try. The net effect is that sometimes a Bow of Lothlorien doesn't have the extra random low resist it's supposed to.

[JamesDoyle]

I've jsut realised that Leon's list of Slay multipliers isn't complete (I think)

Leon had:
x2 Slay Evil
x2 Slay Animal

x3 Slay Orc
x3 Slay Troll
x3 Slay Giant
x3 Slay Undead
x3 Slay Demon
x3 Slay Dragon

x5 Execute Undead
x5 Execute Demon
x5 Execute Dragon

I have assumed that Execute == *Slay*

But there is an extended list of *Slay* weapaons in ego-item.txt, so putting Leon's info into that:

x2 Slay Evil
x2 Slay Animal

x3 Slay Orc
x3 Slay Troll
x3 Slay Giant
x3 Slay Undead
x3 Slay Demon
x3 Slay Dragon

x? *Slay* Evil
x? *Slay* Animal

x? *Slay* Orc
x? *Slay* Troll
x? *Slay* Giant

x5 *Slay* Undead
x5 *Slay* Demon
x5 *Slay* Dragon

What are the missing multipliers, and are the ones there correct for the current version?

[roustk]

I've jsut realised that Leon's list of Slay multipliers isn't complete (I think)

But there is an extended list of *Slay* weapaons in ego-item.txt, so putting Leon's info into that:

What are the missing multipliers, and are the ones there correct for the current version?

You're confusing two entirely different things here.

We have ego items that are named "Slay Whatsit", "*Slay* Whatsit", or "of Element". These ego types are each associated with a variety of 'flags' that the game uses to apply damage (and that I will discuss below).

A weapon of Slay Animal provides the SLAY_ANIMAL flag.
A weapon of Slay Evil provides the SLAY_EVIL flag.
A weapon of *Slay* Evil provides the SLAY_EVIL, BLESSED, and WIS flags.
A weapon of Slay Dragon provides the SLAY_DRAGON flag.
A weapon of *Slay* Dragon provides the KILL_DRAGON, RES_FEAR, and CON flags.

The SLAY_ and KILL_ flags are interpreted as follows:
When calculating the damage of a shot, arrow, bolt, hafted weapon, polearm, sword, or digging weapon (which should be all of them), the damage can be multiplied by a value 'mult'. The largest mult value is used (or 1 if no SLAY_, KILL_, or BRAND_ apply).

SLAY_ANIMAL weapons have a mult of 2 when striking animals.
SLAY_EVIL weapons have a mult of 2 when striking evil monsters.

SLAY_UNDEAD, SLAY_DEMON, SLAY_ORC, SLAY_TROLL, SLAY_GIANT, and SLAY_DRAGON each have a mult of 3 when striking an appropriate monster.

BRAND_ACID, BRAND_ELEC, BRAND_FIRE, BRAND_COLD, and BRAND_POIS each have a mult of 3 when striking a susceptible monster.

KILL_DRAGON, KILL_DEMON, and KILL_UNDEAD each have a mult of 5 when striking an appropriate monster.


In weapon descriptions, a SLAY_WHATSIT flag becomes "It slays whatsits". (SLAY_EVIL is "It slays all evil creatures".) A KILL_WHATSIT flag becomes "is especially deadly against whatsits". A BRAND_ELEM flag becomes "It is branded with elem".


So, Leon's list perfectly describes the SLAY_ (Slay) and KILL_ (Execute) flags. The translation to egos is inexact: except for dragons, demons, and undead, a *Slay* Whatsit weapon has only the SLAY_WHATSIT flag (for a multiplier of 2 or 3). A *Slay* Dragon, Demon, or Undead weapon has the KILL_DRAGON, KILL_DEMON, or KILL_UNDEAD flag (for a multiplier of 5). Slay Whatsit weapons have SLAY_WHATSIT flags (for a multiplier of 2 or 3).


Note that a Mace of Disruption has SLAY_UNDEAD and many artifacts have SLAY_ or KILL_ flags. No standard weapons have BRAND_ flags, but artifacts (and egos) do.


References (for 3.0.9b): The SLAY_, KILL_, and BRAND_ flags are assigned mult values by tot_dam_aux() in cmd1.c. Those flags are interpreted for the 'I'nfo screen by describe_slay() and describe_brand() in obj-info.c. The flags are assigned to weapon types, ego item types, and artifacts by lib/edit/object.txt, lib/edit/ego_item.txt, and lib/edit/artifact.txt.

Kevin

[roustk]

You're confusing two entirely different things here.

That came off a bit harsh. The terminology used in the game and code fails to be either specific or consistent, leading to a variety of misinterpretations. A user guide needs to clarify, especially in circumstances like these.

The name of a weapon gives a hint of its powers, but the only real value in the name is to label weapons which have the same powers. All *Slay Animal* weapons do the same thing (and they apparently have something to do with slaying animals and are more powerful in some sense than mere Slay Animal weapons).

The 'official' in-game information about the powers of weapons (or armor) come from the 'I'nfo screen. If a weapon "slays animals" or "slays all evil creatures", its damage is multiplied by 2 when attacking animals or evil creatures, respectively. If a weapon "slays" anything else, the damage is multiplied by 3 when attacking those creatures. If a weapon is "especially deadly" against a creature, the damage is multiplied by 5.

Please drop the "execute" language here -- it is not used outside of the code (and then only in comments and one variable name). No need for yet another term for KILL and especially deadly weapons.

EDIT: and Executioner's Swords have no SLAY or KILL flags. Crisdurian has SLAYs, but no KILLs.

[JamesDoyle]

Thanks for clarifying. I realised Execute wasn't the correct terminology, but it's what Leon had used in his earlier version of the manual; I presume it might actually be the correct term in a variant of Angband.