Tears unnumbered ye shall shed

[TJS]

Word of Recall is a super-weird and gamey mechanic. Could we have something better, please.

Dungeon merchants that wander around the dungeon. Different merchants sell different types of stuff.

You can buy stuff off them or kill them and steal all the loot.

[Nick]

1. Get up
2. Have coffee
3. Read thread
4. Get second coffee

OK, I'm going to start answering stuff, most important first and then random order.

Let me get this straight....you are actually considering maintaining 4 games (FAangband, OAngband, Belairand, AND Vanilla), plus the comps? Just how many hours a day are there in New Zealand, anyways?

AUSTRALIA. I know it's confusing - Antoine is in New Zealand, and Andrew Doull is from New Zealand but living in Australia (via the UK).

This is because I took on Moria as well as NPP, and am considering adding a frog-knows module. You just had to stay one ahead of me, didn't you?

No, but I intend to blame you.

[Nick]

Nick, sounds like 'massive restructure of the code ' is a major policy plank. What principles do you plan to restructure on ?

This sums up a lot of it, and also what takkaria said upthread.

This from Jeff is also relevant:

However I think in general the Angband dev team trended away from commenting "Ben Harrison" style (comments practically every line, and detailed explanations every function as well). This is probably because they are much better and experienced coders than me, and don't need a comment every line to figure out what is going on. I stuck with the Ben Harrison style coding.

I learned a large chunk of my C from doing FAangband, which I forked from Oangband by Leon Marrick and Bahman Rabii, which Leon forked from Ben's V2.8.3. So I also appreciate frequent comments. That is something I would like to re-emphasise too, but it won't be an overnight thing.

[Nick]

Combat system

Combat: it seems like we have a few possible approaches here. Vanilla-style, O-style, Mists-style, Sil-style, and v4/Pyrel-style. I'm not too familiar with Mists combat, but all of the others (except Vanilla-style of course) would entail a fairly significant rebalance of items at the very least, and Sil combat I suspect only really shines when the monsters are built around it too. We could also of course come up with something new, but all of these systems have the advantage that they're already implemented and working.

This is a great summary. I'm inclined to think that introducing Sil's combat would change the character of the game too much; Mist combat I haven't really looked at, but I'll take Mikko's word on that. So I see that as leaving

1. v4-combat
2. O-combat
3. V-combat as is
4. V-combat modified, probably toward O- or v4-combat, or both

I currently don't have an opinion; I know O-combat well, and I'm aware that a lot of thought was put into the design of v4-combat, so it's a good discussion to have.

[Nick]

Other projects

Beleriand

Yeah, but I don't think it's all bad. I do have other *band-related stuff I work on - here's how I see the impact:

• FAangband - the code restructure should benefit FA, and the game is mature enough that it doesn't *need* a lot of work. I have been considering a re-do of the monster list, for example, which is a project that can be fitted in as a change from other stuff.
• Beleriand - again code restructure should benefit here, and I was working pretty sporadically on it anyway. It is a long term project, which would probably become longer term. Impact on Beleriand is probably my biggest reservation.
• Competition - not actually a lot of work. If someone else wanted to take over, I'd be fine with that.
• Variant repository - this is largely done, and should be finishable fairly quickly and a handy resource; probably more a plus than a minus
• Angband linux/variant packaging - this is a classic crazy will-never-be-finished idea whose status would only be enhanced by me taking on more stuff
• Oangband - I put a lot of work into the 1.1.0u update ages ago, and have done almost nothing since. Essentially unmaintained, and not a consideration.
• oook stuff - here is a URL for submitting news posts to pav. I use it a bit, and other people doing that would be good.
• V devteam - probably covered

There is also the point that a lot of this work is mutually reinforcing, and I can do some bits as a change from other bits.

Also THIS IS A GAME AND IT SHOULD BE FUN.

The developers work on it for fun, the players play it for fun, we post stuff on the forums for fun. It's easy to forget that sometimes.

If I do this, I plan to have fun.

[Nick]

Devteam

I am itching into getting back into development.

I too have been waiting for 3.5 to stabilize so that I can get more big refactors done; there are a few that are mostly done and a few waiting to be started. Working on Angband is refreshingly enjoyable for me right now, compared to my normal development work.

Excellent news.

I don't know exactly how me as maintainer and a devteam would work, but I think we could muddle through. Probably the best of takkaria's many achievements as maintainer was the team process, and I wouldn't want to mess with that too much. I'd be inclined to start slowly and let things evolve as they evolved. I would possibly look at recruiting some specific people, too.

Third coffee finished now, and diminishing returns. More later.

[Philip]

AUSTRALIA. I know it's confusing - Antoine is in New Zealand, and Andrew Doull is from New Zealand but living in Australia (via the UK).

So, that's you with 4 variants, Antoine has created 3 variants, and Andrew created Unangband? You guys are in charge of all Angband!

[nppangband]

This is because I took on Moria as well as NPP, and am considering adding a frog-knows module. You just had to stay one ahead of me, didn't you?

No, but I intend to blame you.[/QUOTE]

Seems fair. I might fold Quickband and frog knows into the NPP codebase just to keep the pressue on you.

By the way, a group of us are seriously considering doing the core-ui split on the NPP codebase, making the necessary modifications so that NPP compiles as C++ code (not actually converting any code to C++; just keeping it as C but setting up for any C++ code to be added in the future), deleting about half the code and making a modern front end using either allegro or QT, with the added benefits that the game can have a front-end specifically designed for tablets.

http://forum.nppangband.org/viewtopic.php?id=1561&p=1

Not sure which one of us is more crazy at the moment.

[Nick]

By the way, a group of us are seriously considering doing the core-ui split on the NPP codebase, making the necessary modifications so that NPP compiles as C++ code (not actually converting any code to C++; just keeping it as C but setting up for any C++ code to be added in the future), deleting about half the code and making a modern front end using either allegro or QT, with the added benefits that the game can have a front-end specifically designed for tablets.

http://forum.nppangband.org/viewtopic.php?id=1561&p=1

That is brilliant, and seems to align very largely with my ideas. I assume you would not mind me stealing stuff, as you never have in the past...

[Antoine]

> Competition - not actually a lot of work. If someone else wanted to take over, I'd be fine with that.

I think it would be fair if someone took the comp off your hands. You have done a great job with it

A.

[debo]

I will totally run a comp but I take no blame if emphasis is on sil

[Antoine]

> I don't know exactly how me as maintainer and a devteam would work, but I think we could muddle through.

I would be interested in doing the occasional small, self-contained piece of work. I did the new monster groups with fizzix and that seemed to work well.

I like theorycrafting too.

A.

[Mondkalb]

Hm, I'm really worried about the impact on Beleriand because I am looking forward to it and can't wait to see it.

A major rewrite of the Angband code seem to be an enormous undertaking. My personal wish: If it turns out to be too complicated, leave it as it is and go on working with Beleriand.

[Magnate]

I don't know exactly how me as maintainer and a devteam would work, but I think we could muddle through. Probably the best of takkaria's many achievements as maintainer was the team process, and I wouldn't want to mess with that too much. I'd be inclined to start slowly and let things evolve as they evolved. I would possibly look at recruiting some specific people, too.

I can offer some reflections here. I agree that it was takkaria's greatest contribution, but it gives you the responsibility of balancing the quantity of contributions against the quality. Give commit access to too many enthusiastic amateurs like me and you end up with the "dodgy design decisions" to which Antoine referred in the previous thread - note that this dodginess will often have nothing to do with the contributions themselves, but their interaction with some other part of the game. Eddie was assiduous in pointing out how every change I made broke something else, even when the change itself was a good one.

So it seems to me like you have a fundamental choice between the approach takkaria took with V and the one Derakon is taking with Pyrel - Derakon is an awful lot more exacting, but has many fewer contributors. (I know that's not an entirely fair comparison because Pyrel started from scratch.) At one end of the scale you write the whole thing yourself and it's perfectly coherent, and at the other end it's rapidly evolving, unbalanced chaos.

Personally I think you're insane for taking this on, and it's particularly painful for me because this will be the THIRD time I've written the bloody affix system (if you'll have me) - but I can't say I'm not impressed.

Final tip: don't release nightlies. Release often, but do it after finding out what the latest changes have broken.

[Nick]

I can offer some reflections here.

Thank you, this is very helpful.

it gives you the responsibility of balancing the quantity of contributions against the quality. Give commit access to too many enthusiastic amateurs like me and you end up with the "dodgy design decisions" to which Antoine referred in the previous thread - note that this dodginess will often have nothing to do with the contributions themselves, but their interaction with some other part of the game.

So it seems to me like you have a fundamental choice between the approach takkaria took with V and the one Derakon is taking with Pyrel - Derakon is an awful lot more exacting, but has many fewer contributors. (I know that's not an entirely fair comparison because Pyrel started from scratch.) At one end of the scale you write the whole thing yourself and it's perfectly coherent, and at the other end it's rapidly evolving, unbalanced chaos.

This expresses the issue perfectly. I think team dynamics won out in the end - my gut feeling, without a lot of playing, is that 3.4 is well-balanced, and 3.5 clearly better than it in every direction. But moving to a new maintainer would change those dynamics, and have the potential to derail everything again.

Luckily, I have nominated basic code restructure with no gameplay change as the first thing I would do. This leads to some advantages:

• Team all get used to n00b maintainer and possible new members
• 'Game-breaking bug' means game crashes or doesn't run, which is fine in the context of a code restructure
• Everyone involved gets to know the overall code structure better

Personally I think you're insane for taking this on, and it's particularly painful for me because this will be the THIRD time I've written the bloody affix system (if you'll have me) - but I can't say I'm not impressed.

Have you not noticed the use of "would" rather than "will"? This thread is like the first stage of XP allocation in Sil - you can see what you're buying, but you haven't bought it yet

As regards the affix system, note that combat system is part of the last item on the list, all of which would be subject to review and negotiation. I can say that writing the affix system twice has been a valuable life experience for you