It's been a while now...

[Timo Pietilä]

I assume when you see an item on the floor, it will tell you the base type but not its runes ? You get the rune info on picking it up ?

That seems like the most likely way to go; that, or you see the runes when you walk over the item.

Picking up is too slow. You need that happening at walk over. I ID items at floor if I can in current vanilla because picking them up for ID is too slow.

[takkaria]

We should set a deadline for 3.5...what still needs to be done for it?

Just loads of bugs. I want(ed) 3.5 to be really polished on release, since otherwise old bugs just loiter around for ages. There's 77 bugs open still and I originally said I'd release when it got to 30, which is 37 bugs left.

There are potentially two crash bugs, too - one related to chaos breath and one related to inscribing @f9 on worn quiver items.

Molybedenum has done loads of bughunting, and I've had a few days where I've bulldozed through quite a few tickets, but there's still plenty to do (and I filed a load the other day when I realised I had a text file with a list of bugs that hadn't been filed ). The deadline has been expanding for a long time but I really don't want a release with so many known problems!

[Tyggs]

Okay...so...ditching the need to use identify spells/etc wasn't enough, now ID-by-use past the first few levels is too much bother too?

[Derakon]

Okay...so...ditching the need to use identify spells/etc wasn't enough, now ID-by-use past the first few levels is too much bother too?

I guess if you like the status quo, then complaining about changes is a hazardous occupation.

[Tyggs]

I guess if you like the status quo, then complaining about changes is a hazardous occupation.

This isn't about "liking the status quo". The conversation went exactly the direction that I'd said I'd worried about with the changes. Seriously, why not just have everything ID'd already at this rate? God forbid the player should actually have to put forth anything to discover what items do... As much as I hate when people use the term in general about changes in games, you're talking about dumbing it down severely.

Also, before when talking about curses, you were DRASTICALLY exaggerating the damage all but a very tiny fraction of the curses could do to a player. Seriously, I can think of maybe one cursed item that was able to "destroy" a character until he could get the curse removed.

[Tyggs]

So, here's a thought if we want to lessen the role of ID without removing its need entirely, inspired by Torchlight 2: All "average" items are pre-identified. Basic magic items as well ( Simple +x/+x weapons, +x ac armor ). Ego items, however, are hit or miss. The lesser ego items will nearly always be identified ( Most basic rings, weapons of frost, armor of resist cold, etc are examples of what I mean here ), greater ones ( Holy Avenger weapons, for example ) won't be. Artifacts will never be pre-ID'd. In all these cases, you can either use the current method of ID-by-use to discern properties or use a scroll/spell/etc of ID. Once enough properties are discovered ( x% of all the item's properties ), the character can determine the specific type of ego item or which artifact he has.

Equip a mace, and its wis bonus is immediately apparent. Hit a couple evil creatures with it and realize it slays evil. Spot a Poltergeist and realize it grants see invis. Hmm, Holy Avenger? Maybe x% chance of determining the specific ego type/artifact per property uncovered. More difficult for artifacts. How this might work with something like the Phial I'm not quite sure.

Really, I just don't want to see magical ID'ing done away with entirely. Though, I still don't like the idea that you can equip an item straight off the dungeon floor almost completely worry free...

[Derakon]

Also, before when talking about curses, you were DRASTICALLY exaggerating the damage all but a very tiny fraction of the curses could do to a player. Seriously, I can think of maybe one cursed item that was able to "destroy" a character until he could get the curse removed.

Are you a warrior, paladin, rogue, or ranger? Equip a cursed weapon. Now your effective offense has been totally crippled.

Did you try to ID-by-use a piece of armor by swapping out your Resistance armor? Now you have no elemental resistances. Have fun surviving.

In the very early game, cursed armor is not much of an issue. By around 1500-2000' though, practically every slot is contributing something important to the player, and getting that slot jammed shut with something that provides no useful abilities is a major setback.

I understand that philosophically you are against simplifying the ID process. I would like you to understand why other people think it's a good idea, though, even if you disagree with them. Many of us (but not all!) see the process of identifying gear as contributing nothing but tedium to the game. The player expends resources (money and inventory space) on identification stuff, then they use up those resources on identifying gear, then when those resources run out they have to return to town to get more. Nobody seriously explores the dungeon without an adequate supply of identification (unless they're playing ironman, granted). So all that the identification process adds is another "pointless hoop" for the player to jump through.

Again, I don't expect you to agree with this; I just want you to understand that we're not irrational jerks out specifically to ruin your game.

As for identifying every single item by use, the main issue that runs into is that it gets very clunky past the midgame. After you finish clearing a vault, are you going to stop to equip every weapon you find, use it against a variety of enemies, etc. just so you can figure out what it does? That's just trading the "ritual of reading a Scroll of Identify" for the "ritual of finding harmless enemies to try weapons out on", since you're sure not going to risk fighting something actually dangerous with an unknown weapon. It's even worse if the gear you want to test requires you to unequip a vital ability like Free Action.

That said, I could get behind making the player ID-by-use each rune several times before learning to recognize the rune's effects in general. So you'd have to ID-by-use Resist Fire several times before you'd be able to recognize all the variants of the Resist Fire rune on sight. This is something we'd probably want to experiment with once someone has a working rune-based ID system in place, to see how long it takes before the player recognizes everything. I do think that eventually the character should be able to reach the point where they automatically recognize everything and thus all items are effectively identified as soon as they are walked over. But that'd be a late-game achievement.

Oooh...what about the "permanently cursed" rune?

[Timo Pietilä]

Okay...so...ditching the need to use identify spells/etc wasn't enough, now ID-by-use past the first few levels is too much bother too?

Yes, actually. It's worse with ID, you have that at first few levels too, so this makes ID things a bit harder, not easier.

[Kosonen]

That said, I could get behind making the player ID-by-use each rune several times before learning to recognize the rune's effects in general.

Does the rune-ID work between different gear? If you have knowledge of rFire from, say, a ring, do you ID armor of rFire? Should the rune IDing be by gear or as a whole?

[Tyggs]

Yes, actually. It's worse with ID, you have that at first few levels too, so this makes ID things a bit harder, not easier.

I don't see how but okay....

[Timo Pietilä]

Does the rune-ID work between different gear? If you have knowledge of rFire from, say, a ring, do you ID armor of rFire? Should the rune IDing be by gear or as a whole?

One rune to rule them all.

[Estie]

One rune to rule them all.

One rune to bring them all would be too easy.

[Gorbad]

One rune to bring them all would be too easy.

The infamous, much sought after Rune of *Acquirement*.

[Jazerus]

Well, to be honest, Nethack went overboard with it. Only about 1 in 10 deaths there for me were from actual monster fights. Less probably. Like I said, Nethack went too far with the unavoidable "Surprise! You die" situations. Angband always in the past had a nice balance there. Usually, if I died in Angband, it was because I did something wrong and not just because the RNG hated me. RNG spite did happen occasionally... But, most of my deaths were due to diving too fast, lack of resistances I should have had by then, waiting too long to heal/phase door/teleport, and other such things.

I know this is from over a month ago, but I'm really not sure you're giving Nethack a fair shake here. Nethack is little different from Angband or Crawl in this regard - if you're knowledgeable, prepared, and cautious you will rarely not be ultimately responsible for your death in all three games. It's part of what makes the whole genre so compelling, I think. This isn't particularly apparent when you first start playing any given roguelike, though - it always feels like random chance killed you until you learn what situations not to ever put yourself in. If anything, I think Angband has killed me more times through sheer RNG screw than Nethack has.

[Timo Pietilä]

I know this is from over a month ago, but I'm really not sure you're giving Nethack a fair shake here. Nethack is little different from Angband or Crawl in this regard - if you're knowledgeable, prepared, and cautious you will rarely not be ultimately responsible for your death in all three games.

The Gnome deliberately steps into polymorph trap -more-
The Black Dragon breathes disintegration -more-
You die -more-

Or.

The Gnome picks up a wand -more-
The Gnome zaps you with disintegration (or something like that)
You die -more-

Nethack has a lot of unavoidable ways to die at early game. In later game you can to status where killing you is near-impossibility.