It's been a while now...

[Nomad]

The main issue with artifacts that I was thinking of is that they're more likely to have uncommon runes on them, and in large numbers. But I definitely agree that they ought to use the same rune-based system that all other items do. So if you know Resist Fire and Fire Brand, then when you find Narthanc, all of its abilities will be automatically recognized. Well, I guess you'd have to activate it once.

In short, ID scrolls would be for "I've tried everything I can think of and still have no idea what this rune is, so please, game, just tell me."

I guess the alternative might be a (class/level/stat based?) time similar to how pseudo-ID works, where if you equip an item with an unknown rune for a long enough time, you eventually just spontaneously figure it out?

[takkaria]

The main issue with artifacts that I was thinking of is that they're more likely to have uncommon runes on them, and in large numbers. But I definitely agree that they ought to use the same rune-based system that all other items do. So if you know Resist Fire and Fire Brand, then when you find Narthanc, all of its abilities will be automatically recognized. Well, I guess you'd have to activate it once.

In short, ID scrolls would be for "I've tried everything I can think of and still have no idea what this rune is, so please, game, just tell me."

Or ID scrolls could maybe reveal one of the runes on a given object at random, instead of IDing a whole object. This would make them less powerful while also allowing the player to find out what the last rune on an item was.

[Estie]

I guess the alternative might be a (class/level/stat based?) time similar to how pseudo-ID works, where if you equip an item with an unknown rune for a long enough time, you eventually just spontaneously figure it out?

I was thinking the same, but here Id prefer the *Id*. If its only about a few rare runes, using a scroll is better than resting on level 1.

[AnonymousHero]

Or ID scrolls could maybe reveal one of the runes on a given object at random, instead of IDing a whole object. This would make them less powerful while also allowing the player to find out what the last rune on an item was.

+1.

(blah blah blah for spam filter)

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Or ID scrolls could maybe reveal one of the runes on a given object at random, instead of IDing a whole object. This would make them less powerful while also allowing the player to find out what the last rune on an item was.

I'd maybe like ID scrolls to be rare, but have them reveal all runes on an item. That way choosing when to use them would require more strategic thinking: identify a simple ego item now, or save the scroll for an artifact?

I like how in Larn identify scrolls identify everything in your inventory. Stockpiling unidentified consumables and choosing the perfect moment for reading the rare scroll is fun. But maybe that's just me. (Circles of Knowledge in Halls of Mist work similarly.)

I don't like common, repeatable sources of identify (cheap scrolls/staves/spells) for the same reasons that Timo specified earlier. But maybe we're in minority? Many people wouldn't like the identify-by-use subgame being forced on them even if it was really well done.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

For cursed gear, as I see it there are two main options. The first is mixed-blessing items, like some of the jewelry already in the game, or like the items that Nick described. The idea here is that the item has some penalty (which you might not immediately discover), but it also has an upside. Power at a price.

The second option is to make the player jump through unusual hoops to get rid of cursed items, instead of just returning to town for Remove Curse. For example (like Takkaria described), an item that is stuck to you until you kill some number of orcs. Or an item that aggravates until you kill a certain (preferably dangerous) unique. These items wouldn't be otherwise bad (so you wouldn't have a useless lump of metal occupying a vital equipment slot), but you'd still have an incentive to go out of your way to fulfill the requirements to uncurse the item.

I like these. And I really like what Nick has done with jewelry and cursed items.

In Mist, I still have sticky curses. They work quite well for jewelry because sources of Identify are rare, and the majority of even low-level jewelry are actually beneficial. (The latter is a recent change in my development version. The distribution of rings and amulets is also highly random. That ring you found on the first dungeon level might be almost anything.) Often I find myself putting on an unidentified ring just to save inventory space. Scroll of Remove Curse are quite common.

A couple of weeks ago I added a new class, Sorcerer, to replace Mage and Mystic that were simply boring with the Ironband mana system, where mana only refreshes when you switch dungeon levels. Sorcerer is the cosmic outlaw. He may refresh his mana by committing transgressions. One of the transgressions is putting on a cursed item. That should produce some really interesting strategic decisions! Sorcerers are banned from entering the Temple and therefore can't stockpile Scrolls of Remove Curse.

[Timo Pietilä]

In short, ID scrolls would be for "I've tried everything I can think of and still have no idea what this rune is, so please, game, just tell me."

Dwarves would have hard time figuring rBlind, Elves See_inv, Hobbits HL etc. unless game gives that info even if there is no noticeable effect.

We have code for ID in place, so why not make some test version without ID just to see if it is necessary. That could be reverted really easily by adding ID item back if it looks like we still need them.

[Timo Pietilä]

I like these. And I really like what Nick has done with jewelry and cursed items.

One version of sticky curse is that you can't drop from inventory it but you can remove it from equipment. Even The One Ring could be taken off in Tolkien world, but whoever had it would not discard it. my preccssioussss.

[MattB]

Dwarves would have hard time figuring rBlind, Elves See_inv, Hobbits HL etc. unless game gives that info even if there is no noticeable effect.

Why not simply give those races innate knowledge of those runes?

[Timo Pietilä]

Why not simply give those races innate knowledge of those runes?

That's one way of solving the problem, but for me it doesn't feel right.

[takkaria]

Looks like a featureset for 3.6 is making itself clear:

• rune based ID & nerfing of ID and pseudo ID to match
• curses make a return
• stat drain that is temporary

If anyone wants to try to code these then I'm sure they'll be incorporated.

[Derakon]

You can have a rune glow when it takes effect, even if the character is innately protected.

Which raises the question: if you're blind, can you ID runes by use?

[fizzix]

Looks like a featureset for 3.6 is making itself clear:

• rune based ID & nerfing of ID and pseudo ID to match
• curses make a return
• stat drain that is temporary

If anyone wants to try to code these then I'm sure they'll be incorporated.

We should set a deadline for 3.5...what still needs to be done for it?

Rune ID already exists in v-4, it could be ported over.

[Estie]

I'd maybe like ID scrolls to be rare, but have them reveal all runes on an item. That way choosing when to use them would require more strategic thinking: identify a simple ego item now, or save the scroll for an artifact?

<snip>

I don't like common, repeatable sources of identify (cheap scrolls/staves/spells) for the same reasons that Timo specified earlier. But maybe we're in minority? Many people wouldn't like the identify-by-use subgame being forced on them even if it was really well done.

The reason I dislike rare id scrolls isnt so much that it forces a game of identify by use on me. I have said it before and repeat: the way to get said id scroll also is the way that yields more artifacts that need iding. If you can think of an id process that doesnt have this property, I would probably like it.

I dont know if you have played many games with randarts in vanilla's days of *id*; what often happened was that I found a GV (yay!), collected all the artifacts, stored them in the home for later iding because I didnt have enough *id* scrolls, recalled down looking for *id* scrolls but instead found another GV. So I had to dump unidentified artifacts for lack of space.

If you played with standarts, there was never an issue because you knew the properties by type. Artifact chain mail ? That will be Arvedui etc.

Anyway, rune based it should mean that by lategame everything is identified and there will be no issue. I assume when you see an item on the floor, it will tell you the base type but not its runes ? You get the rune info on picking it up ?

[Derakon]

The reason I dislike rare id scrolls isnt so much that it forces a game of identify by use on me. I have said it before and repeat: the way to get said id scroll also is the way that yields more artifacts that need iding. If you can think of an id process that doesnt have this property, I would probably like it.

Rune-based ID ought to sidestep this issue because there's a hard cap on the number of runes in the game (and, moreover, that number is relatively small), but the number of ID scrolls you can find is unlimited.

Anyway, rune based it should mean that by lategame everything is identified and there will be no issue. I assume when you see an item on the floor, it will tell you the base type but not its runes ? You get the rune info on picking it up ?

That seems like the most likely way to go; that, or you see the runes when you walk over the item.