No-sell

[Derakon]

Like I said, feel free to disagree with people. Feel free to give constructive criticism. The things you've been saying in this thread, eMeM, amount to:

1) I don't like that no-selling is on by default;
2) I think no-selling is a terrible idea;
3) I think the devs are doing a lousy job and should just quit maintaining Angband.

There's also something in there about no-sell making the game too easy or something, which could potentially be constructive criticism, but honestly it's hard to read those points because they're so completely surrounded by pointless invective. I mean, do you realize how insulting item 3 up there is? You're talking to people who have dedicated hundreds of hours of their time to this community, time that could have been spent on other hobbies. Or, hell, on jobs that actually pay money -- have you given tens of thousands of dollars' worth of effort to this community? And here's a hint: playing the game doesn't count. Telling the devs to give up and go home because you don't want their freely-given contribution is just about the biggest insult you can give.

And, once again, Pyrel is completely orthogonal to all of this. Players should ignore Pyrel until it is ready for release. The dev team works on what it likes. Sometimes that's rebuilding some fundamental code for Pyrel, sometimes it's tweaking the stats for Angband. You have no right whatsoever to say what people can and cannot work on, or that they're not allowed to split their efforts.

[eMeM]

You say there was nothing constructive opinion in my post. It was explained in detail: There is no need for (default) option to stop selling and gain money from dungeon coins but it takes away something that is fun for some users like me. About Pyrel questions.. I'm sure more people here are concerned what will happen with Angband when Pyrel is finished and ready to play. Maybe they fear to ask because you would take it as an insult. There were discussion about what is better, one maintainer or devteam, did you find it insulting? I don't know how many members they have, what I know is having many members they lack clear vision as a whole, each member pulls it in different direction. Why? There was lot of effort to make less junk in the game and no_selling and small home changes are clearly against it. In other topic I said about warriors losing their advantage in fast ID because every class now has it.

[takkaria]

You say there was nothing constructive opinion in my post. It was explained in detail: There is no need for (default) option to stop selling and gain money from dungeon coins but it takes away something that is fun for some users like me.

And selling takes something away from the game that is fun for me. It's still an option, you can still turn it off, it'll still be supported.

About Pyrel questions.. I'm sure more people here are concerned what will happen with Angband when Pyrel is finished and ready to play. Maybe they fear to ask because you would take it as an insult. There were discussion about what is better, one maintainer or devteam, did you find it insulting? I don't know how many members they have, what I know is having many members they lack clear vision as a whole, each member pulls it in different direction. Why? There was lot of effort to make less junk in the game and no_selling and small home changes are clearly against it. In other topic I said about warriors losing their advantage in fast ID because every class now has it.

I mean, you're welcome to your opinion but we have collectively worked out in the last few versions where we'd like to see the game moving. I actually think that no selling just swaps around what is considered junk in a way that's interesting - there's less reason to carry weapons and armour to sell but loads of consumables are suddenly more worthwhile.

As to ID, the changes to the ID system in V clearly haven't finished being worked out yet. The pseudo ID rates are something I've wondered about myself. I guess for non-warrior classes I always used to 'R'est until I got feelings about items, which is boring and doesn't serve any real gameplay purpose. But then maybe warriors should be able to tell weapon bonuses straight away without using the item first? I don't know. Obviously these suggestions 'makes the game easier'. If there are ways to make the ID game more fun at the same time as not making it easier I'm happy to hear them.

I obviously wasn't paying attention when the small home change went in; can you elaborate?

[DaviddesJ]

The smaller home in recent versions is one of the few things I don't care for. Trying to guess which of several items I might have some reason to use in the future, is just sort of un-fun. I'd rather just throw them in my home and most of the time it won't matter. My impression is that the smaller home size is more a side-effect of other changes than an intentional decision? Ideally we'd figure out how to make the home as big as you want.

[eMeM]

And selling takes something away from the game that is fun for me. It's still an option, you can still turn it off, it'll still be supported.

I mean you can start a new game in 3.0.0. It doesn't have that option but you can restrict yourself to never sell. You can use all scrolls, wands, staves, rods you never used before. Is your fun going to suffer so much from less money drop? It shouldn't matter that much as I've heard you don't go back to town as often as before. This all no-selling thing is only about a weird selling mindset some of you had. There was no need to take away this feature from default version of the game to cure this mindset.

I mean, you're welcome to your opinion but we have collectively worked out in the last few versions where we'd like to see the game moving. I actually think that no selling just swaps around what is considered junk in a way that's interesting - there's less reason to carry weapons and armour to sell but loads of consumables are suddenly more worthwhile.

As to ID, the changes to the ID system in V clearly haven't finished being worked out yet. The pseudo ID rates are something I've wondered about myself. I guess for non-warrior classes I always used to 'R'est until I got feelings about items, which is boring and doesn't serve any real gameplay purpose. But then maybe warriors should be able to tell weapon bonuses straight away without using the item first? I don't know. Obviously these suggestions 'makes the game easier'. If there are ways to make the ID game more fun at the same time as not making it easier I'm happy to hear them.

I obviously wasn't paying attention when the small home change went in; can you elaborate?

I think it began from someone saying that most chars on ladder use same kit. So then we had some new ego items, little rework in artifact abilities and random artifacts. And then at the same time when shopping interface was changed we got small home. Small home limits our equipment choices and makes some artifacts and egos items useless because home is full of more important items. With bigger home maybe we would be able to use them later in the game.

[takkaria]

I mean you can start a new game in 3.0.0. It doesn't have that option but you can restrict yourself to never sell. You can use all scrolls, wands, staves, rods you never used before. Is your fun going to suffer so much from less money drop? It shouldn't matter that much as I've heard you don't go back to town as often as before. This all no-selling thing is only about a weird selling mindset some of you had. There was no need to take away this feature from default version of the game to cure this mindset.

Maybe the money-fix is too big, I don't know. But the point of no-sell is not to be a difficulty option, it's meant to be a balanced ways of playing the game. So you need something to make up for the loss of cash from selling.

I think it began from someone saying that most chars on ladder use same kit. So then we had some new ego items, little rework in artifact abilities and random artifacts. And then at the same time when shopping interface was changed we got small home. Small home limits our equipment choices and makes some artifacts and egos items useless because home is full of more important items. With bigger home maybe we would be able to use them later in the game.

OK, well I'm happy to make the home bigger.

[DaviddesJ]

I mean you can start a new game in 3.0.0. It doesn't have that option but you can restrict yourself to never sell. You can use all scrolls, wands, staves, rods you never used before. Is your fun going to suffer so much from less money drop? It shouldn't matter that much as I've heard you don't go back to town as often as before. This all no-selling thing is only about a weird selling mindset some of you had. There was no need to take away this feature from default version of the game to cure this mindset.

Are you mad that it's an option or mad that it's the default? It doesn't really affect you, either way. It seems a silly thing to get mad about, much less start insulting everyone.

[DaviddesJ]

OK, well I'm happy to make the home bigger.

Cool. I, for one, would appreciate that.

[eMeM]

Are you mad that it's an option or mad that it's the default? It doesn't really affect you, either way. It seems a silly thing to get mad about, much less start insulting everyone.

It's about making it default because for new players it's the same as if it didn't existed at all. Would they feel so much pressure to sell and get greedy to get millions even when there's nothing to buy or would they found it awarding to find and sell something valuable. No answer to that question, for new players feature is already gone. Ability to sell things for money and stat gain makes early levels more interesting for me. That's always something more than just EXPing

[DaviddesJ]

It's about making it default because for new players it's the same as if it didn't existed at all.

I don't think this is the reality today. Anyone who starts playing Angband has experience with other similar games, and certainly with the fantasy trope of collecting loot and selling it. They are perfectly capable of understanding the difference between selling or no-selling and choosing which sounds more fun to them. Personally, I would make the default to be selling on, just for historical reasons. But I think it makes very very little difference, because anyone who's going to play Angband is able to choose for themselves.

Ability to sell things for money and stat gain makes early levels more interesting for me.

That's why it's an option.

[AnonymousHero]

It's about making it default because for new players it's the same as if it didn't existed at all. Would they feel so much pressure to sell and get greedy to get millions even[...]

You know about it and can thus turn if off. I don't see large swaths of players complaining... if they were, then you might have a point.

Can we please let this thread die?

[eMeM]

Also I'm upset because I see it as limiting choices for new players. I like freedom of choices instead of being forced to play one way developers think should be played. That's why Sil with forced descending will never be my thing. In 3.0.0 players could sell or restrict themselves with selling. You can't do other way and start selling in a game with no_seelling = one choice less. That's not improvement.

[eMeM]

You know about it and can thus turn if off. I don't see large swaths of players complaining... if they were, then you might have a point.

Can we please let this thread die?

We have players who need no_sell to stop selling and here we have a guy who needs help to stop reading boring threads. You can't resist?

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I for one am glad that the devs try to pick default options that they think are good for the gameplay. That's them doing their work.

BTW, is connected stairs still the default, and will it stay that way? It's my pet peeve.

If non-connected stairs was default, there would be no need to fix stair scumming. With connected stairs as default you will need to work out another solution.

Or maybe you should add a section to the manual: "This is how you can cheat easily in Angband. You shouldn't." I remember being confused as a newbie when the stair system made the game all too easy.

Here's Timo and Magnate discussing it:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpost.php?p=47816&postcount=21

[DaviddesJ]

Also I'm upset because I see it as limiting choices for new players. I like freedom of choices instead of being forced to play one way developers think should be played.

You must not understand what an option is. You set it to whatever choice you want. It's the exact opposite of being forced to do anything.