Help getting past dlvl20-25

[Vertigo1]

Hello, to introduce myself im a long time moria player who has just been introduced to this game by my brother and ive got to say its awesome. I like the changes, the difference in AI and i like that its harder.

I play with disconnected stairs (as i think stair scumming is flat out cheating, however finding other stairs up or down is fair game) and play primarily rogues and rangers.

However, im completely stuck continually every time i play around dlvl20 or slightly beyond. I got to this point, and after detections for stairs bad guys treasure etc i find im never ever going to get to the next stairs without getting gubbed. I find my arrows/bow do nothing, even the lowest of bad guys "shrug off" my ranged attacks and there is no possible way for me to kill uniques. Also, i tend to get one shot by a number of things near this level too, or things that move too quickly ill never get away with all my kit.

Most of the time i find myself fairly well kitted for my depth i think, plenty of phase, teleport, clear wounds, some resists here and there but nothing that helps me get to the stairs. If any unique gets a sniff of me im dead meat, arrows do nothing or the unique can outheal my damage and i have no chance in melee, or risk getting crippled by them stealing all my money.
i get to this point nearly 100% of the time when im playing seriously, then find i cant go more than one of two levels deeper at a time without having to go to town and pick up more consumables, and inevitably end up surrounded blinded, confused stuck between trolls an umber hulk and water hounds or something

Any general or specific tips for getting passed this sort of hump? i think ive got a good idea as to what i can fight and what i need to run from. i really want to progress in this game a bit further and get to some good item depths and be able to associate with some people who just run up characters to low depths consistently.

[Derakon]

At that depth, the most important thing to be able to make progress is having an adequate offense; after that, you need to have the items that will allow you to bail when that offense isn't adequate. Things to look out for:

1) Gear that amps up your melee and ranged damage. If you have high STR and DEX, then you may be able to get multiple blows per round with lightweight weapons (probably easier with the rogue than the ranger). Each blow gives your full to-dam bonus, so for example 2 blows with a Dagger (1d4) (+0, +2) is better than 1 blow with a Mace (2d4) (+0, +2). Similarly, longbows have an x3 multiplier compared to shortbows' x2, so any damage bonus on a longbow is worth 50% more. If you can find Rings of Damage, they'll help your melee damage significantly (though not, sadly, your ranged damage).

2) Carry a Staff of Teleport. These can be used even when you're blind and confused, so they're good for escaping from umber hulks and other bad situations.

3) Carry potions of Cure Serious Wounds or better. They'll cure blindness and confusion.

4) When you're getting low on HP in a fight, try using Phase Door to create some space and then chugging multiple healing potions. Drinking healing while in melee range doesn't work well because the monster will just immediately attack and undo the healing you got, but the Phase Door makes room so they spend the time moving instead of attacking.

Around about this depth you're also going to want to start looking out for a source of Free Action; getting paralyzed is usually fatal and monsters start showing up with paralyzing spells and, worse, paralyzing melee attacks.

As a general rule, it sounds like you're trying to dive through the dungeon very aggressively, beelining for the stairs as soon as you see them. While that playstyle can work, it's very difficult since you'll be unable to take on most monsters you encounter. Playing that way really requires you to know what you're doing. If you're still learning the ropes of the game, then my advice is to dive until you feel like you're having trouble keeping up, then replay that level a couple of times. The experience and items you find will make surviving easier, readying you for the next dive.

[Raajaton]

Actually at that depth I tend to find ranged attacks more useful than melee on most of my characters unless I happen across a really good early melee weapon. This is because the mobs at that depth do tend to be very dangerous for your level, again unless you've gotten some lucky drops or farmed a lot before getting there. Perhaps you're unlucky with finding a decent launcher, and good ammo. Remember to always pick up ammo and see what it is when you find it in a dungeon. Magical or Ego ammo can turn even a crappy launcher into significant damage.

I was stuck at that depth for a long time myself, so I know how it feels. The best way I've found to get past it is to essentially blow through it. Ideally you want to get to around dlvl 30, which is where you will begin finding stat gain potions, and that is where your character will really start getting more powerful. I try to detect every few steps so I know what's around me, and I try to use source of magic mapping that I find so I know the layout of the dungeon and where those enemies I'm detecting actually are in relation to me. Once you've figured out the safest route, just make your way to the closest down stairs.

Generally before you get down to dlvl 30 it's helpful to have rbase covered, see invisible, free action, and rpoison. If you have those things covered you can generally skirt around levels looking for stat gain potions, loot upgrades, and killing off weaker monsters. There will be plenty of monsters you won't be able to fight, and the majority of the uniques you come across will probably be out of your league at this point until you start gaining stats and finding better items. Don't worry about killing uniques the first time you encounter them, you can always find them at a deeper depth later when you are stronger, and the deeper they are when you kill them the better loot they can drop. Wands/rods of teleport other help immensely if you can find them at this point. I try as best I can to keep myself around 15k gold just in case a wand of teleport other shows up in the black market.

I'm still a noob at this game, but having only somewhat recently broken the hump myself I hope some of this proves useful.

[emulord]

By far, that part of the game is "hardest" for most character types in most *band games. Hounds, summoners, paralyzers, highHP hitters all start showing up.
You have all the defensive kit knowledge obtained. However, damage counts as defense, because if you kill enemies faster, they have less time to cause you dangerous situations.
I usually hovered at d.lvl 15 or so until I get a +9damage Longbow/ Heavy crossbow (for ranger types) with at least 10 decent excellent arrows/bolts, and a lot of average ammo. OR +int ring with a mage/ enough good wands, OR +7 or more damage ring with a {good+} weapon with at least 2 bpr with Pal/Rog/War. A priest or a stealth-rogue are the only chars Id dive with defensive kit only.

With a good offense, you can detect, aggro 1 enemy, kill it for lots of comparitive exp/loot. And repeat for relative safety. Clearing out parts of levels and being cautious is the safest way to dive past this high risk/low reward section and get to 30 where you'll find stat pots.

[Derakon]

Generally before you get down to dlvl 30 it's helpful to have rbase covered, see invisible, free action, and rpoison.

Resist poison? Really? How are you managing to find a source of poison resistance this early?

Free action is generally non-negotiable, since so many enemies can paralyze you (lost a promising competition character because I kept diving without it and got paralyzed by an ogre mage, for example). Basic 4 resistances are helpful mostly because many monsters at this depth have elemental attacks, but if you have the HP you can put that off. See Invisible is handy because of ghosts, many of which drain stats with their attacks and are hard to fight when you can't see them -- but it's not vital. And while there are plenty of monsters who will poison you at this point, a potion of Cure Critical Wounds will cure that; the main reason to have poison resistance is for poison breath attacks, and those don't start being a major concern for a bit yet.

[Pete Mack]

At 1000', there are a lot of monsters that aren't worth killing.
Water hounds destroy your equipment
Air hounds that cost lots of CCW
Dark elven lords, who are very dangerous until you can do big damage

Once you have Free Action, your best bet is to get to 1500' and start stat gain.
You will absolutely need a Staff of Teleportation, Curing potions, and Phase Door. Everything else is optional. See invisible is critical below 1500'. You can get by with only rFire to 2000'.

The important thing is to avoid fights that cost more than they are worth, either in time, provisions, or risk.

[Nick]

If you're stuck for ideas, you could try watching fizzix' Kobold Rogue let's play (starts here). People's playstyles vary a lot, and seeing someone else's may give you techniques you hadn't thought of.

[Pete Mack]

If you're stuck for ideas, you could try watching fizzix' Kobold Rogue let's play (starts here). People's playstyles vary a lot, and seeing someone else's may give you techniques you hadn't thought of.

You probably want to start at episode 8, which is 1000'.

[Oramin]

You probably want to start at episode 8, which is 1000'.

Hey, Disney hasn't even finished Episode 7 yet ...

[quarague]

First a comment on diving speed, just because nobody put anything explicit yet. I usually try do to something like 1 dungeon level per char level until I reach l20, from then on 2 dungeon levels per char level until char level 35 and dungeon level 50, from there on dive quickly, it depends more on equipment than on level.
Second, if a monster 'shrugs off' an attack that only means, the damage dealt is small relative to the total hitpoints. Not sure what the exact numbers are but if a monster takes 10 to 20 arrows to take down you will get the 'shrug off' message forthe first 2 or 3 arrows, just keep going. Oh and if you play rangers, once you get 2 shots per turn, that gives a massive boost to your damage output. So something like a longbow with +5 to damage, quiver full of +0 arrows and a dozen phase ? from the store are enough to take down quite powerful monsters (at least if there is only one of them at a time).

[Mondkalb]

High stealth can help a lot to get around.
Try a ranger or rogue with high stealth. I usually dive fast through the levels with lots of hounds. There are of course even more annoying hounds deeper, but you will probably be able to detect and avoid them.

High stealth allows you to sneek around and pick your fights. With a hobbit rogue plus a bit of extra stealth you could even rest without waking up a lot of monsters adjacent to you.

[Derakon]

Note that stealth is completely useless around hounds, as they're always awake.

[Mondkalb]

Note that stealth is completely useless around hounds, as they're always awake.

Yeah, hounds, monsters in pits and some other monsters like vortex/storm of different kinds.

[Vertigo1]

Thats some good advice, maybe ill try make sure i have certain things set before diving too deep

I dive very aggressively i think is the problem, my escapes are fine, i know what i can and cant fight and i know how to kite deal with groups etc, but i think whats holding me back is my offense. Gonna hang around a bit more till i get some major damage output and a couple character levels before diving too much deeper next time

that video series looks good too will check it out later on.

oh one last question, how do you deal with small maze room/levels when playing disconnected stairs? for me its almost always a recall moment with no hope of picking up anything or killing anybody

[Derakon]

oh one last question, how do you deal with small maze room/levels when playing disconnected stairs? for me its almost always a recall moment with no hope of picking up anything or killing anybody

These levels can be very hard because of the small space; if you can't blitz the level (rapidly take out opponents) then you can easily end up getting swarmed. So yeah, if your offense isn't up to the opponents you're facing, just get off the level as quickly as you can.

Group monsters are also a pain in these settings because they'll never approach melee range, instead hovering 6-10 spaces away.