some comments on speed

[quarague]

Getting an increase in speed is one of the most powerful improvements to a char you can make. For example, if you have +10 speed against a normal speed monster you can hit it twice for each hit of it. But you can also hit it once, back up one step, monster follows, repeat, which seems a little exploitative. It is my understanding that a monster with normal speed only has +0 speed on average but might be a little faster or slower. I think this effect should be much stronger. Say if you have a room with a dozen orcs you should expect one of them to have +3 speed (and one -3). Currently it feels like you might get one with +1. For monster that are already naturally fast, the variance should be even higher.
Second if you are overburdened you can a slight penalty to to hit, which at least for me was always completely irrelevant and a -1 speed, more for more weight. For a starting char with +0 base speed this is quite important and gives a nice trade off. But once your base speed is say +10 this becomes irrelecant, it doesn't really matter if your speed reduces to +8 because you carry way to much stuff. I would therefore suggest that the speed penalties scale with your base speed, so at +10 you should get -2 for slightly overweight, -4, -6 for more etc.
Finally and probably most controversially I would suggest to double the base speed, so that +10 makes you 1.5 times as fast as +0 and +20 makes you twice as fast. That would still make speed one of the most powerful improvements but it would not be quite as overpowered.

[Timo Pietilä]

That would still make speed one of the most powerful improvements but it would not be quite as overpowered.

It's not overpowered. It's just powerful. Deeper in dungeon everything that could pose any threat to you move at speed +20. Morgoth moves at +30.

[quarague]

I feel it is overpowered in the sense that whenever you have the choice between a piece of equipment that gives extra speed and one that does not, the extra speed is the better choice, almost no matter what the other item does. This only changes when you enough speed items to reach something like +20 but even then you will always choose equipment that gives you at least +20 speed and only afterwards look at any other desirable properties.

The global speed reduction was meant to apply to the player and the monsters equally. At deeper levels the same overpowered argument applies, if some creature only moves at normal speed it poses practically no threat, no matter what else it does. Only +20 speed monsters are relevant. So speed is still the key feature that eclipses almost everything else (everything apart from summoning ;-)

[LostTemplar]

I feel it is overpowered in the sense that whenever you have the choice between a piece of equipment that gives extra speed and one that does not, the extra speed is the better choice, almost no matter what the other item does.

It is true when playing harder games, like artifacless ironman. While in normal game speed may be traded for something, that gives "protection from player's stupid mistakes" e.g. base resists, free action, huge HP boost etc. In harder games it is not possible to afford such luxury.

Just forgot that some amount of speed (about 4) is worth trading for ESP.

[Timo Pietilä]

The global speed reduction was meant to apply to the player and the monsters equally.

That just means that you change the scale, and everything stays the same. In order to change speed importance you would need to slow down fast monsters and make speed-items more rare/lower their bonuses.

Speed just plain is powerful. It should be powerful. However in deeper levels it's easy to gain speeds where you no longer choose items based on speed. Also at low levels there is a breakpoint at +10, +15 is not that much better than +10: 25% more speed might not be worth many other items, like Aglarang vs Aeglos for Priest, but if you can reach +20 with that +5 then it might again be worth it.

[LostTemplar]

That just means that you change the scale, and everything stays the same.

Changing the scale means that e.g. ring of damage will have more chance to be superior to ring of speed. It does not stay the same. Actually good idea to scale down speed by factor of two, worth doing and playtesting it is just two lines in the code to change.

[Timo Pietilä]

Changing the scale means that e.g. ring of damage will have more chance to be superior to ring of speed. It does not stay the same. Actually good idea to scale down speed by factor of two, worth doing and playtesting it is just two lines in the code to change.

If you change it globally double-speed monster stays double-speed monster. It doesn't change a thing. There has to be something that doesn't change speed-wise to make it change something.

[half]

If you change it globally double-speed monster stays double-speed monster. It doesn't change a thing. There has to be something that doesn't change speed-wise to make it change something.

I don't think you have understood the proposal. It is to make +10 speed monsters 1.5 times as fast instead of 2 times as fast. So double speed monsters become 1.5 speed monsters. Sounds like a sensible change to me.

[Timo Pietilä]

I don't think you have understood the proposal. It is to make +10 speed monsters 1.5 times as fast instead of 2 times as fast. So double speed monsters become 1.5 speed monsters. Sounds like a sensible change to me.

IOW you move the "zero speed" point in energy table to current +10 point, but otherwise keep everything as it is? That's easy change.

Though I'm against it mostly because I feel that speed should be powerful. Most powerful of them all. If you want to make getting speed a bit harder, then reduce number of items giving it, and make mage/ranger/rogue haste cost more and be higher level spell.

Compared to old times getting speed without compromising other things is still ridiculously easy, even that it is quite a bit harder now than it was in 3.1-series.

[quarague]

Though I'm against it mostly because I feel that speed should be powerful. Most powerful of them all.

I think even if you would tone done the effect by half, it still would be the most powerful effect. It is currently so powerful that it completely overshadows any other effect. I think in general, you get good gameplay when you have to make trade off decisions where there is no unique correct answer, or where different monsters are dangerous for different reasons, and some are dangerous to some players but harmless to others.

[chris]

I think even if you would tone done the effect by half, it still would be the most powerful effect.

Cutting it in half favors diving. Its easier to handle +10 speed monsters if they are only 1.5x faster than you!

[LostTemplar]

Cutting it in half favors diving. Its easier to handle +10 speed monsters if they are only 1.5x faster than you!

Yes, but it is still not easy for most monsters.

[OOD Town drunk]

It is true when playing harder games, like artifacless ironman.

Who would do that to themself?

[Pete Mack]

Who would do that to themself?

Do I hear a challenge for COMP 139?

[OOD Town drunk]

Do I hear a challenge for COMP 139?

I would recommend ironman keep the artifacts. Artifacts are half the reason I play. I always play random. In every new artifact, I find a little bit of that joy and excitement I would feel on Christmas morning as a child. It may be my only source of such pure innocent anticipation in this life... well maybe not as serious as I made it sound there, but it really does remind me of opening presents