Playing 3.4.1 after a few years off

[getter77]

In terms of woes with clearing a large or any room of dragon stuff or whatnot---what about something akin to a "Loot Room" command/screen done up not entirely unlike the shop screen? That would get around going pile to pile and squelching could do the business it needs to within it perhaps.

[TJS]

Ok, now we're talking!

Well yes. IMHO the argument "this mechanic is less broken than this other one" is not a strong one.

Well is it really broken though? A small reward for carrying something around for ages that is essentially useless if the correct situation doesn't arise.

You're now knocking down an argument I didn't make. I've never said that it's free, I said it's "on-demand" - the key part being the comparison with something that has finite uses and cannot be recharged (e.g. if it was a scroll instead of a wand).

I agree that recharging is not free - although I dismiss mana cost as a triviality, inventory space is indeed a cost, as is the risk of the recharged item blowing up. But IMO they both pale into insignificance beside not being able to recharge it.

It sounds like you think the recharge mechanic is broken rather than clone monster. I would agree to a certain extent. Either mana in the dungeon needs to be more precious rather than rest and get it all back or the recharge needs to be removed from the spell/prayerbooks.

I've argued previously that recharge shouldn't be sold in the shops (apart from maybe occasionally in the black market) so you need to use them strategically when you find them, again creating more interesting gameplay situations.

[buzzkill]

Get off your reactionary high horse. Surely you don't think that I should be required to play the game that you think is perfect.

It isn't about you or what you do, any more than previous rants were about Magnate or Tak. The bit about full ID, was no more serious then the bit about the spell that wipes your ass. I could care less what you do with your personal files and your personal time. You should know me better than that by now.

However, the fact that it touched a nerve... says something, and it's not like it's pie in the sky 'oh that could never happen' full instant ID of everything. It just hasn't happened yet. Maybe it isn't even being considered... yet. My point is, if you look at where we started and where we are now, it's hard to defend the point that that isn't where we're headed.

[Nick]

Buzzkill - you've got to remember, V is an intro for the babies who aren't ready for variants yet

/me goes to play 20th competition attempt

[Timo Pietilä]

Yes exactly, which just doesn't seem right to me. A highly intelligent starting castor is going to have less INT than an endgame HT warrior. Dumb starting characters should suffer bad device skill until the end-game in my opinion. Characters with low strength should have to forego heavy equipment. These are all fun restrictions that suddenly get removed after stat gain. I always think the fun factor starts to fade when you get to stat gain depth.

It's not actually stat-gain, it is the items that start to appear at stat-gain. You can focus on items boosting your desired stats, so that you are over the stat-gain much before you have actually maxed your internal stats. At that point it is no longer character development but equipment development, and that is somewhat boring.

This is BTW one of the reasons I voted that artifacts are still too common. Artifact are supposed to be great, but they should be rare enough that you might not have every slot filled with them before endgame or near-endgame. Endgame has been tried to make a bit more challenging by introducing more deadly monsters, but because monster avoidance is so easy that doesn't really work, and after you can kill them those monsters actually make things worse because they have "good" drops. More items have been introduced, but that makes them more dull because they make challenge out of getting the right combo.

IMO angband is suffering from bloatware syndrome: there must be more of everything.

[fizzix]

It's not actually stat-gain, it is the items that start to appear at stat-gain. You can focus on items boosting your desired stats, so that you are over the stat-gain much before you have actually maxed your internal stats. At that point it is no longer character development but equipment development, and that is somewhat boring.

Can you do this with Con? I've never gotten it high enough in any class with equipment anywheres before dlevel 70 or so. If there's a problem here, it's that not every stat is important for each class.

Besides, Angband has always been a game about equipment. You may not like that aspect of it, but the game is very clearly designed around the equipment as opposed to character development (there are no skills) or experience gaining (levels stop being important after a while).

This is BTW one of the reasons I voted that artifacts are still too common. Artifact are supposed to be great, but they should be rare enough that you might not have every slot filled with them before endgame or near-endgame.

Your opinion is duly noted. However, I offer up the counter-argument that I've never had any slot filled so far in a 3.4 game that I've played. I think in the last game, I was wielding a shield of resist lightning or something because I never found a better one.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I'm liking the discussion, rants and emotions and everything.

I'd like to ask people who are not satisfied with Vanilla's difficulty level: is NPP better? I've got an impression that NPP is like Vanilla II, and if you don't like Vanilla you could quite easily switch to NPP. (I've no personal opinion in this.)

[Malak Darkhunter]

.

IMO angband is suffering from bloatware syndrome: there must be more of everything.

That's why I like frog-knows gameplay, There is no birth_preserve on artifacts, no JLE items, no instant item knowledge or rod/wand stacking, back then an artifact truly meant something. I would really like to see somebody port frog-knows to modern V interface and ui, that would be awsome Then you would hear some crying.

Now bearing in mind that Magnates changes to Zephyr hounds and the removal of amnesia I think by fizzix made the game a lot less aggravating.

[Derakon]

Back then an artifact truly meant something.

Artifacts were all over the place in frog-knows. Hell, I still remember getting The Trident of Ulmo off of a player ghost around about 500' with one character -- that thing's now native to dlvl 30 on up and has the same rarity as the Rings of Power. And yeah, it was a bit of an outlier back then, but you found plenty of awesome gear in frog-knows. Hell, Rings of Speed +2 (equivalent to modern +20!) weren't exactly unheard-of.

frog-knows was hard for all kinds of weird reasons, like there being no spoilers and no way to determine what your items do other than by direct observation (or *Identify* / Self Knowledge, but you had to write its results down because they didn't stick around), needing to memorize the monster list to know what detected monsters were (since you couldn't 'l'ook outside of LOS), not being able to equip a weapon and a bow at the same time, not being able to tell how badly-wounded enemies were (no healthbar, though there might have been textual descriptions when you 'l'ooked at the monster), etc. frog-knows was strange and much of its perceived awesomeness probably came from my not knowing all the rules of the game I was playing -- there was lots of mystery which made the exploration much more intense. But now I know the rules; I can't exactly un-learn them. I don't know that the game would be the same if we just up-ported its mechanics to a modern engine.

Which isn't to say I'd not play Frog-Knows 3.5 or something.

[nppangband]

I'd like to ask people who are not satisfied with Vanilla's difficulty level: is NPP better?

It is tough to say if NPP is harder than Vanilla. I think it is safe to say that NPP offers more opportunity for danger, and more reward for facing danger. IMHO at the moment, due SOLELY to my slower development pace and the fact that NPP has a much smaller devteam, NPP 0.5.4 is probably better balanced and less buggy than vanilla (and, just to clarify, I am NOT trying to hint or imply anything. I work at a slow pace and NPP has some excellent playtesters who don't miss a thing).

I've got an impression that NPP is like Vanilla II, and if you don't like Vanilla you could quite easily switch to NPP. (I've no personal opinion in this.)

That might hold true for NPP and Angband 2.8.x or 2.9.x. From there, Angband 3.x and NPP looked at the same problems and went for completely different solutions. But with the right birth options NPP offers a very vanilla game.

I do have high hopes for the upcoming NPP 060. The main focus is improving the quest system. About a half-dozen new quest types are being offered, and they are completely different than "go to a certain depth and kill a specified number of monsters monsters". Some of them are quite different than any roguelike experience I know of. My playtesters seem to be enjoying it. When somebody sent me an e-mail saying {paraphrased} "This is amazing. I have never had to much fun getting killed in my entire life", I started to think that we are creating something really good.

[Antoine]

IMO angband is suffering from bloatware syndrome: there must be more of everything.

have you tried 'minimal'?

a.

[Malak Darkhunter]

have you tried 'minimal'?

a.

Speaking of which, what's happening with mimimal? any future updates coming? Haven't heard much discussion since we playtested the first release.

[Antoine]

Speaking of which, what's happening with mimimal? any future updates coming? Haven't heard much discussion since we playtested the first release.

stuff will happen to the extent that someone helps me make it happen :-)

edit: when i get back from vacation ill check my to do list. i suppose a good goal could be to get the game to the point where its ready for a comp

a.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

I do have high hopes for the upcoming NPP 060. The main focus is improving the quest system. About a half-dozen new quest types are being offered, and they are completely different than "go to a certain depth and kill a specified number of monsters monsters". Some of them are quite different than any roguelike experience I know of. My playtesters seem to be enjoying it. When somebody sent me an e-mail saying {paraphrased} "This is amazing. I have never had to much fun getting killed in my entire life", I started to think that we are creating something really good.

Cool!

I've generally not enjoyed EyAngband-originated quests very much in *bands because they tend to lead to a situation where only the quest monsters are challenging, while the rest of the dungeon level is too easy & unfun. In other words, quests slow down diving.

This could perhaps be solved if quest depth depended mostly on player power -- sometimes, after gaining lots of levels while completing a quest, you'd have to dive 15 levels for the next quest level.

EDIT: Also, I think I would enjoy quests more if the reward did not depend on how many quests you have completed previously. Then you would not get punished for diving when you feel like it.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

That might hold true for NPP and Angband 2.8.x or 2.9.x. From there, Angband 3.x and NPP looked at the same problems and went for completely different solutions.

Could you elaborate a bit on these problems and solutions?