More sensible group monster amounts

[PowerWyrm]

I'm just porting this for my variant, and it will be fun to do the same with all extra monsters that had FRIENDS or ESCORT flags...

In the process, I've found a couple (minor) issues:
- typos: I don't know if it matters, but some names don't have the right case (for example: Greater balrog when it should be Greater Balrog)
- alignment: in standard D&D, an adventuring party can't have both good and evil members, so I would change some of the friends for them (for example: don't put Black knights with Paladins)

[Derakon]

I think having solo giants appear with a smattering of hounds is fine; the giants don't need to appear in groups. I always imagined giants as being rather solitary creatures anyway.

If you do want them to appear in groups, that needs to happen well after they first start showing up. An individual giant is actually a fairly challenging melee opponent when you first see them; they don't need the power boost from showing up in groups until later after they're individually less of a threat. A weird analogy would be if you first started seeing Forest Trolls singly at 400' or something -- they'd be difficult but doable. If they started showing up in groups at that depth, though, then you'd have a problem.

[fizzix]

I think that Bill, Tom, and Bert are fine, really -- they're not too difficult to avoid, and by the time you can face one, odds are decent you can face the others too back-to-back (or at least teleport away and rest up). I'm less fond of the giants showing up in groups though.

What changes if any would you like to see for the giants? The two Umbar-ians?

[Derakon]

Would it be appropriate to move these monsters deeper, or weaken them in some way? I knew this was a possible issue going in, but I think overall it's a huge improvement to have Bill, Tom and Bert appear together as opposed to separately with their individual escorts.

I think that Bill, Tom, and Bert are fine, really -- they're not too difficult to avoid, and by the time you can face one, odds are decent you can face the others too back-to-back (or at least teleport away and rest up). I'm less fond of the giants showing up in groups though.

Yeah, I did throttle them at depth pretty strongly, but there still will be mixed groups of 2-5 fairly often at level 2. It used to be that they weren't grouped at all until level 5 or so. That's not true now. I'm not sure there's an easy fix.

Let's see how it plays; the current system may well be fine. Certainly it's better than getting curbstomped by a group of 15 soldiers at dlvl2, which is what was happening previously!

[fizzix]

* Giants now effectively show up in groups, which makes them considerably more dangerous. They have high melee damage output; previously, fighting one was doable but you'd need to rest up afterwards. That's no longer possible.
* Bolg and Azog show up together; ditto Sangahyandor and Angamaite, Bill, Bert, and Tom, and a few other combinations. Mostly this just means you put off the confrontation until even later than you used to.

Would it be appropriate to move these monsters deeper, or weaken them in some way? I knew this was a possible issue going in, but I think overall it's a huge improvement to have Bill, Tom and Bert appear together as opposed to separately with their individual escorts.

* Early novice adventurer group sizes have improved (i.e. gotten smaller), though there's still more of 'em than there were back in the 2.8 days. Oh well.

Yeah, I did throttle them at depth pretty strongly, but there still will be mixed groups of 2-5 fairly often at level 2. It used to be that they weren't grouped at all until level 5 or so. That's not true now. I'm not sure there's an easy fix.

* Sometimes a "grouping" will be split by a wall; sometimes that wall means that the walking distance between entities in the grouping is actually quite large. Usually this doesn't happen though.

Yes, I didn't feel like writing extra architecture to fix this problem, but it's on my list of possible inclusions for 3.5. Right now scattering had two options when deciding where to place the group of friends, you can enforce LoS or not. I chose not to, so that monsters in corridors can still have escorts. The proper way to do it is to choose a space within a N square heat map of the original location, and place the friends there.

[Derakon]

I've been doing some playing with the new group sizes; in general things look good. I've posted most of my feedback in the IRC channel. The main things I've noticed:

* Giants now effectively show up in groups, which makes them considerably more dangerous. They have high melee damage output; previously, fighting one was doable but you'd need to rest up afterwards. That's no longer possible.
* Bolg and Azog show up together; ditto Sangahyandor and Angamaite, Bill, Bert, and Tom, and a few other combinations. Mostly this just means you put off the confrontation until even later than you used to.
* Early novice adventurer group sizes have improved (i.e. gotten smaller), though there's still more of 'em than there were back in the 2.8 days. Oh well.
* Sometimes a "grouping" will be split by a wall; sometimes that wall means that the walking distance between entities in the grouping is actually quite large. Usually this doesn't happen though.

[Antoine]

Feedback and further suggestions are greatly appreciated. I haven't had a chance to play with these changes yet, but I may do that soon.

Are there any brave testers out there? I'd be interested to see feedback / AARs...

A.

[fizzix]

Good work. Sorry, I didn't know which were actually typos and which were just my sense of spelling being off. I'm sure they'll come right.

A.

takkaria help find the typos. I had to do some extra work today to fix all the now broken references to FRIEND(S) and ESCORT(S) but that's been done and the request has been merged as of today.

Feedback and further suggestions are greatly appreciated. I haven't had a chance to play with these changes yet, but I may do that soon.

[Antoine]

Ok, pull request is in. I added a monster-base option which let's you pick a random escort from a specific base (using the old escort requirement that the monster is lower-level than the escortee). I also incorporated most of Antoine's suggestions. I didn't search for the typos he hinted at but didn't say, so I'll correct them in future revisions.

Good work. Sorry, I didn't know which were actually typos and which were just my sense of spelling being off. I'm sure they'll come right.

A.

[fizzix]

Ok, pull request is in. I added a monster-base option which let's you pick a random escort from a specific base (using the old escort requirement that the monster is lower-level than the escortee). I also incorporated most of Antoine's suggestions. I didn't search for the typos he hinted at but didn't say, so I'll correct them in future revisions.

[MattB]

You guys are missing the big thing here - the introduction of Time and Gravity Giants

Nick, I actually had a nightmare last night about time giants after reading this thread!
Maybe I should lay off the angband for a while...

(Mind you, a couple of days ago my stomach rumbled and, just for a split second, I genuinely decided to read a scroll of satisfy hunger)

Maybe I should start a new thread: 'You know you've spent too many hours in the dungeon when...'

[Pete Mack]

Lesser undead works for me. Liches are generally more dangerous than vampires, but they're also typically a lot more rare, so it's not so much of an issue. Also, if you have DEX sustained (generally easier than having Hold Life) you can just drop your wands/staves and they're pretty harmless.

High level Liches also disenchant, so beware.

[Derakon]

For the topic at hand, vampires can have an escort of lesser undead. That seems fair. Lichs as well. (Lichs are far more of an annoyance than vampires IMO).

Lesser undead works for me. Liches are generally more dangerous than vampires, but they're also typically a lot more rare, so it's not so much of an issue. Also, if you have DEX sustained (generally easier than having Hold Life) you can just drop your wands/staves and they're pretty harmless.

[fizzix]

Vampires, especially the higher tiers, are very annoying enemies as it stands (unreasonable durability, drains experience, no real rewards for fighting); giving them escorts even of weaker enemy types will only aggravate the problem, and I don't think it's sufficiently thematically interesting to be justifiable. Sure, there are stories of vampires forming enclaves (or whatever the group noun is), but most famous vampires worked alone.

Well at some point we do need to discuss whether some of the changes should be accompanied with a nerf. For example, the three trolls bill, bert and tom are now together, so they'd be pretty deadly as a group. IMO they'd be far more interesting as an early unique (around dlevel 20) and essentially a double (quadruple?) HP stone troll.

sangahyando + angamite is another one that might require an HP reduction, since they appear together.

OTOH the player can just avoid these uniques if they don't have the -to one and deal with the other option, perhaps.

For the topic at hand, vampires can have an escort of lesser undead. That seems fair. Lichs as well. (Lichs are far more of an annoyance than vampires IMO).

[Derakon]

Vampires, especially the higher tiers, are very annoying enemies as it stands (unreasonable durability, drains experience, no real rewards for fighting); giving them escorts even of weaker enemy types will only aggravate the problem, and I don't think it's sufficiently thematically interesting to be justifiable. Sure, there are stories of vampires forming enclaves (or whatever the group noun is), but most famous vampires worked alone.