How to combine stacks?

[lenrok]

Hello

I have two different stacks of scrolls (phase doors).
One with 22 scrolls (found in dungeons), and second 20 with 'bought from store'.

How to combine them? Any suggestion?
I do not want to use 2 slots, but just one.

Thanks in advance.

[Nick]

Read two of them

The maximum stack size is now 40.

[Derakon]

In an ideal world, you'd have a stack of 40 and a stack of 2, just to make this clear. Oh well...

[lenrok]

@Nick - yes, if amount drops to 40,stacks are combined.
Strange, imho more intuitive approach would be combining all the time up to max values.

Thx.

[emulord]

Okay, idk if I'm alone in this, but I feel that stack size of 99 is intuitive, and fine for gameplay, because scrolls and potions are so heavy you only typically max out at 40 CCW anyway.
Having to use 40 good arrows, rather than 99 average arrows also enforces a type of gameplay less condusive to spamming arrows everywhere, which makes a ranger less fun.
So I vote we put it back to 99.

[Derakon]

The problem with rangers (or indeed, any class) being able to spam arrows everywhere is that it's overpowered. Archery's limits are solely in terms of inventory management -- there's no mana to use up, and you're getting to avoid melee attacks while dealing comparable damage as if you were in melee (or were spamming big spells). To make those inventory limits (and thus archery) remotely balanced, you cannot be allowed to carry as many arrows as you want to.

So let's put it this way: you can have either the current system, where you get a quiver to "combine" stacks of ammo of different types, but each slot only takes 40 items -- or you can lose the quiver (and thus every stack of ammo, no matter how big, uses up a slot in your inventory), and have stack sizes of up to 99. The two options are mutually exclusive. Archery is too good with a 99 stack size and the quiver.

[emulord]

I personally like no quiver. It means to optimize you need to have consistent types of arrows. Its another aspect to the game rather than "Always use best 40 (or 80) arrows"

[Magnate]

I personally like no quiver. It means to optimize you need to have consistent types of arrows. Its another aspect to the game rather than "Always use best 40 (or 80) arrows"

Weird. I always found that totally destructive for me, completely arbitrary. Why should I have to drop these last two great arrows, just because there's some arbitrary slot limit?

Quiver all the way.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Weird. I always found that totally destructive for me, completely arbitrary. Why should I have to drop these last two great arrows, just because there's some arbitrary slot limit?

Quiver all the way.

Does it feel as weird to you when you have to drop that one last potion, scroll, mushroom, ring, or wand? To me having two different inventory rule sets feels a bit weird.

In Mist, having no quiver allowed me to have several different types of arrows that are good in different situations, like long or short range, or one-use or tough. (Eytan invented the arrow types, I made them stronger.) With quiver these would become stupid, as the player would just carry all types. In Mist I tend to put interesting tactical decisions before realism.

[Magnate]

Does it feel as weird to you when you have to drop that one last potion, scroll, mushroom, ring, or wand? To me having two different inventory rule sets feels a bit weird.

No it doesn't feel as weird, because I choose when to consume potions, scrolls, mushrooms and wands. Arrows break, which is what makes it arbitrary whether I have two left or ten left. (Swap items like rings aren't in the same category.)

In Mist, having no quiver allowed me to have several different types of arrows that are good in different situations, like long or short range, or one-use or tough. (Eytan invented the arrow types, I made them stronger.) With quiver these would become stupid, as the player would just carry all types. In Mist I tend to put interesting tactical decisions before realism.

You talk as if the quiver is infinite. It only holds ten different types of arrows. As Derakon said, it's a trade-off - you can now carry ten different types of arrows, but only up to a max of 40 in a single inventory slot.

I guess it depends whether individual ego arrows are really powerful or not. In V I think the balance is now about right, but if Mist has more powerful arrows then the quiver would be unbalancing even with a lower stack size.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

No it doesn't feel as weird, because I choose when to consume potions, scrolls, mushrooms and wands. Arrows break, which is what makes it arbitrary whether I have two left or ten left. (Swap items like rings aren't in the same category.)

Ah ok, now I undestand what you meant.

You talk as if the quiver is infinite. It only holds ten different types of arrows. As Derakon said, it's a trade-off - you can now carry ten different types of arrows, but only up to a max of 40 in a single inventory slot.

I guess it depends whether individual ego arrows are really powerful or not. In V I think the balance is now about right, but if Mist has more powerful arrows then the quiver would be unbalancing even with a lower stack size.

I'm talking about base types that you can buy from shops. With a quiver of 40 I would probably buy something like 10 biter arrows, 20 normal arrows, 5 flight arrows, 5 tough arrows in every game. Now I have to make a choice between them. All have good and bad sides, and it depends on the character, my bow, and whether I need arrows for killing uniques or for every fight.

Now that I think about it, maybe it actually could work with a quiver, but it would become a very different kind of decision.

This speculation is moot, really, because I'm planning to get rid of bows and arrows altogether.

[Timo Pietilä]

You talk as if the quiver is infinite. It only holds ten different types of arrows. As Derakon said, it's a trade-off - you can now carry ten different types of arrows, but only up to a max of 40 in a single inventory slot..

How about compromise: five quiver slots, 99 stack size? Ten different types sounds a lot to me, usually I end up using same arrow types in several of them (usually large stacks of branded arrows).

[half]

Much of this problem stems from having far too many types of arrows in V. There are at least 1,000 different kinds of arrows that won't stack with each other! I solved this issue in Sil by drastically reducing the number of types:

- arrows
- arrows (poisoned)
- arrows of piercing
- arrows (+3)

So there is one normal type and three ways it can be enhanced. There is also an artefact arrow and you can make your own artefact arrows but to my knowledge no-one ever has. You could easily cut down on arrow types in V. I'd recommend making them unenchantable, or to only have enchantments that come in some large multiple (e.g. +5 or +10). However, if you have branded arrows and seeker arrows, I see no need for further irrelevantly fine grained pluses.

Other interface points in Sil's archery:

- I also added two quiver slots (like the two ring slots) so you can use 'f' to fire your default ammunition and 'F' to fire the alternate ammunition.
- After you press 'f' or 'F' to fire, pressing 'f' or 'F' again chooses to fire at the target if there is one, and otherwise at the nearest enemy. This allows for really quick archery use
- Firing arrows and throwing objects sets a hidden 'autopickup' flag, so they will be pickup up when you walk over them
- Picked up arrows automatically fill up any quiver that uses that arrow type to the limit (99) and spare ones go in the inventory
- If you have a stack of 80 or something and pick up a stack of 30, the first stack gets filled, giving stacks of 99 and 11

[Timo Pietilä]

Much of this problem stems from having far too many types of arrows in V. There are at least 1,000 different kinds of arrows that won't stack with each other!

Hum? Branded 5, slays 6, holy 1, wounding 1, three base types. 13 * 3 = 39 for each weapon. How do you get 1000? By counting all possible levels of enchantments?

[Derakon]

Hum? Branded 5, slays 6, holy 1, wounding 1, three base types. 13 * 3 = 39 for each weapon. How do you get 1000? By counting all possible levels of enchantments?

Yes. His point is that arrows in V are highly unlikely to stack with each other.