Making V play more like Sil

[LostTemplar]

So, do Balrogs have wings, or not?

More important is that they are not huge. Larger then human definitely but not many times larger.

[debo]

It's starting to get murky in here.

I don't quite understand why so many of us will ragequit out of a thread when dos350 posts, and yet will try to respond rationally to Timo when he's in one of these moods.

If I were you, half, I would just drop it.

Cheers y'all. I'm feeling lucky today, so I think I'm going to buy a lottery ticket and then play some Sil.

[Timo Pietilä]

It's starting to get murky in here.

Agreed.

I don't quite understand why so many of us will ragequit out of a thread when dos350 posts, and yet will try to respond rationally to Timo when he's in one of these moods.

I tend to get a bit too..how to put it...protective, when people talk about changing Angband in some radical new way. It feels like someone saying "lets put a tattoo on your child, it would make her look cool".

For Half, I think your game is great in its own way. I don't like it (for reasons I have said), but that doesn't mean that it isn't well done. That's actually another reason which prompted a bit too harsh response from me: because I feel that it would be absolutely great game with just few tweaks, mainly removal of that forced diving, and it is just frustrating to see something that it "nearly there".

If I had some programming skills I could do something between Sil and current Angband and be very happy with it. In fact just by introducing the more advanced combat model from Sil and a bit modified version of the ability buying (without the song and forging, and not the skill buying) it could improve Angband quite a bit. It would have to be rebalanced thoroughly, but I believe it could be made without disrupting traditional angband gameplay. A lot anyway.

(and before people start to say "that's what I have been saying" and "what are you complaining about", let me emphasize that this is not "Making V play more like Sil", it is "taking good part out of the variant", just like what we did with squelch a while ago)

[HallucinationMushroom]

Every time a bell rings, a balrog gets his wings.

[fizzix]

@Timo regarding squelch and other general things

First of all, I don't really buy the "can't code" excuse. Anyone can learn, and people would be more than willing to help newbies compile and get through the very basics of the code. Not too long ago, I was a newbie myself, having never looked at a chunk of C code, and having only dealt with horribly written physics routines in IDL and Fortran. People helped me compile, they helped me navigate through git, and they helped me when I asked them to explain some C syntax that I couldn't grok. I'm sure they would help you too, or anyone else for that matter. If you like angband and want to learn to code, working on angband is not a bad project for that goal.

I'm a bit more sympathetic to the "I don't have time" excuse because really that's true for all of us, none of us has time to do everything we'd like to do, forget about everything that needs getting done. I probably have the most free time out of all the devs right now, and that usually winds up being about an hour a day, which I've lately spent recording the let's play. It's also important to remember that Angband is a volunteer project. I can tally up all the money I've received from Angband and Angband related projects and it comes out negative (in fact there are only donations). When dealing with volunteers, you can't ever demand anything gets done, *even* if you are the release manager. The best you can do is ask, and you're still left high and dry if the person doesn't want to or has gone awol.

Ok, so let's say you don't have the time to learn and hack at the code. After all, there is a significant time investment to be made here, especially at the start. There are still things you can do to further your aims and get what you want. One option would be to post an algorithm here. Algorithms don't require any coding abilities but they do require some logical thinking. If you want squelch improved, giving some broad guidelines is helpful, but not really. The algorithm would describe exactly what you'd want the code to do in plain human language. So taking the squelch example, you'd need to describe exactly how you'd want the squelch system broken up. What the menu would look like. How the player would interact with it. This is no time to cut corners, assume any details you leave out will not get implemented, but not everything you describe will, possibly due to difficulties in writing the code. Also make sure you address whether the system is appropriate for new players who may never have seen something like a weapon of gondolin.

The squelch menu algorithm could look like:

Initial Menu options A, B, C, etc.
If A is selected, display submenu options Aa, Ab, Ac, etc.
If Aa is selected do x 
and so on and so forth.

Of course you'd also need to describe what squelch options show when you 'k' an item, but you get the idea. Part of the reason that improved squelch has not yet been implemented is because it hasn't been clear to people how to actually do it. A detailed algorithm would certainly help.

Lastly, even if you do write out a fairly detailed algorithm, and this will take a lot of work, there's still a chance that it won't get implemented. Again, with a volunteer project the best you can do is ask. I guess if you really cared, you could try offering monetary compensation to someone to implement it, but beyond that, there's not much you or I can do to convince someone else to work on something that they don't really want to work on.

Ok, now I need to get back to coding (some neutral drag momentum calculations).

[Scatha]

Balrogs have wings of shadow, don't they?

Not in the sense that 'dive' is typically used on these forums. You can easily clear all the levels in Sil, which is the paradigm that is normally considered opposite to diving. You can probably clear them all three times each. There is a difference between having a clock at all and having a fast clock.

I think this perhaps should be true, but actually isn't always. I've occasionally had characters who have in exploring one level had their minimum depth increased by 100' (possibly even more, but I'm not certain). Even one of the recent attempts at Ironman Sil on the ladder commented that they ran into difficulty with this! (Having to abandon a level early so as not to skip a floor entirely.)

I'm not certain quite what the solution here is. I think the game length is roughly correct, at least for stronger characters. Level size is perhaps one factor. I also realise that there's a hidden cost to frequently getting injured in fights, in that resting to heal burns turns. This could be why weaker characters can run into problems with this. It's not clear that it needs to be a cost for them, either, since getting injured can be enough of a challenge. Perhaps resting (z/Z) should give a significantly faster regeneration rate than other actions? (This makes clear flavourful sense; indeed it is somewhat tempting to only regenerate on resting or with a source of regeneration.)

It is IMO more a game of luck than game of skill.

I can see why you might say this, though I think it is misguided. It is almost certainly the case that luck plays a larger role than in Angband, if measured by something like looking at the proportion of games where perfect play gets you killed. Indeed managing luck is a major part of the game in Sil (and I think one of the things which makes it exciting).

Having said that luck plays a larger role in Sil than in Angband, I think skill also does! I think it would be very much harder to write anything like the borg to do as well at Sil as it does at Angband.

OK, how?

An example you already gave is choosing your battleground carefully (you were a bit dismissive of this but I think there is a lot of interest). With some stealth you can also get a lot of power over who to engage and when -- perhaps waiting until the large mob has almost travelled through the room and you'll get the most shots off before they reach you, for example.

The most obvious example is using potions. Most potions which help you in fights work better if taken earlier, which gives a tradeoff between using them early, before you know whether the fight will lead to trouble, and later when you'll get less use from them.

It is also possible (but not always obviously correct) to prepare the ground for fights. This could mean rearranging the dungeon with digging or earthquakes; lighting dark areas or leaving glowing items on the ground; using glyphs of warding; even setting things up so that some enemies can help you against others.

(and before people start to say "that's what I have been saying" and "what are you complaining about", let me emphasize that this is not "Making V play more like Sil", it is "taking good part out of the variant", just like what we did with squelch a while ago)

OK, it seems like it's just a language issue, as that's exactly what I think people have been talking about. This was just a trivial (and time-wasting) disagreement.

[debo]

This was just a trivial (and time-wasting) disagreement.

Isn't that what the internet is for?

[Magnate]

I can't remember if Timo has tried v4's new squelch system - it's very close to flag-based and does almost exactly what he described. Unfortunately it can't be ported to V separately from the affixes. Ho hum.

Sad to see this thread has generated into another "V should have more/less of X; no it shouldn't; yes it should" - and still there are no pull requests.

[Therem Harth]

Wings of shadow evidently aren't much good for flying. Durin's Bane took two falls, the second fatal; and Glorfindel killed one by plummeting off a cliff with it, action movie style.

/OT

[Shockbolt]

So, do Balrogs have wings, or not?

Yes they do

[zaimoni]

I can see why you might say this, though I think it is misguided. It is almost certainly the case that luck plays a larger role than in Angband, if measured by something like looking at the proportion of games where perfect play gets you killed.

Empirically, this is two in three games just considering DL1 through DL3 for Sil 1.0.1. That's what turned me off to Sil.

Indeed managing luck is a major part of the game in Sil (and I think one of the things which makes it exciting).

Having said that luck plays a larger role in Sil than in Angband, I think skill also does! I think it would be very much harder to write anything like the borg to do as well at Sil as it does at Angband.

And also harder to measure said borg's deficiencies.

There are so many Lady and the Tiger choices when starting an early DL in Sil. Normally you have a zero-information choice of which hallway to take at the start of the level; the way the dungeon generator works the plausibility that at least one is instant death is over 50%. (I went into save-scumming to measure this as it was happening a lot. My small sample size didn't find any 2/2 or 3/3 instant death to explore choices, but did find all of 1/2, 1/3, and 2/3 for DL2-DL4. These instant-death zero-information choices were happening about 60%-75% of the time. At DL5 and higher, this Russian Roulette went away because I actually had enough stealth, melee, and CON.)

Also, Debo reported the problem is still extant, so there has been no serious attempt to fix this.

[debo]

Empirically, this is two in three games just considering DL1 through DL3 for Sil 1.0.1. That's what turned me off to Sil.And also harder to measure said borg's deficiencies.

There are so many Lady and the Tiger choices when starting an early DL in Sil. Normally you have a zero-information choice of which hallway to take at the start of the level; the way the dungeon generator works the plausibility that at least one is instant death is over 50%. (I went into save-scumming to measure this as it was happening a lot. My small sample size didn't find any 2/2 or 3/3 instant death to explore choices, but did find all of 1/2, 1/3, and 2/3 for DL2-DL4. These instant-death zero-information choices were happening about 60%-75% of the time. At DL5 and higher, this Russian Roulette went away because I actually had enough stealth, melee, and CON.)

Also, Debo reported the problem is still extant, so there has been no serious attempt to fix this.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly here, but if you're dying that often at DL 1-3, something is funky. I haven't died before 200' in... ages. At least not with a build that I'm familiar with.

I'd say 80%+ of the characters I make survive past 500'. When I first started playing, I'd die at 200' constantly. I'd say that's an indication that practice + skill can help you get better at the game.

As for my "report" -- Which video are you referring to? I've made so many that I lost track of what I've said

[zaimoni]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly here, but if you're dying that often at DL 1-3, something is funky. I haven't died before 200' in... ages. At least not with a build that I'm familiar with.

My impression is that Sil 1.1 has been rebalanced to reduce this, but I'm not going to schedule the time to verify.

Death rate on DL1 was zero for a Naugrim with CON 4; the initial skill layout was "balanced", but weighted towards smithing, stealth, and combat skills (give these 4 rather than 3). I have a systematic error of allocating experience points to skills too quickly.

I'd say 80%+ of the characters I make survive past 500'. When I first started playing, I'd die at 200' constantly. I'd say that's an indication that practice + skill can help you get better at the game.

Starting 250' was a virtual guarantee of starting 400' in Sil 1.0.1.

As for my "report" -- Which video are you referring to? I've made so many that I lost track of what I've said

I may have misattributed it. There was a post about having to save-scum to preview what to actually use when making let's-play videos.

[debo]

There was a post about having to save-scum to preview what to actually use when making let's-play videos.

Oh, that -- No, that's not what I meant when I made that statement.

I basically "warmed up" by regenerating a completely different level than the one I'd play on video, and play that for a bit just to remember the kinds of monsters that appear at that depth. I wouldn't try out the on-video floor first to discover which way I should leave a room to make it easier on me Everything you see on video is 100% reactive in that sense.

[Psi]

There are so many Lady and the Tiger choices when starting an early DL in Sil. Normally you have a zero-information choice of which hallway to take at the start of the level; the way the dungeon generator works the plausibility that at least one is instant death is over 50%. (I went into save-scumming to measure this as it was happening a lot. My small sample size didn't find any 2/2 or 3/3 instant death to explore choices, but did find all of 1/2, 1/3, and 2/3 for DL2-DL4. These instant-death zero-information choices were happening about 60%-75% of the time. At DL5 and higher, this Russian Roulette went away because I actually had enough stealth, melee, and CON.)

If this is what is happening to you, then it can only be because you have skill points invested in the wrong places (or are letting yourself get surrounded). If you put the majority in melee and evasion and forget about abilities etc, then that will see you through until you find some armour and a shield.

The majority of chars I lose at the start is when I have invested 2800 of my 5000 initial allocation in smithing and had to go in with minimal combat stats.