Making V play more like Sil

[Derakon]

I have the opposite opinion of you (2 devs, 3 opinions). I want the player to leave the level because there's nothing left to do on this level. You aren't going to hang out on a level that is devoid of monsters/items. I'd prefer a complete elimination of spawned monsters rather than an increase in danger/density. Furthermore, instead of upping the danger on repeat levels, I'd rather create emptier and emptier levels each time they get visited. However, I don't think this is worth it in the long run and I'd rather focusing on improving ironman options for players who want to be pushed deeper.

Note that I wasn't advocating shoving the player off the level, just saying that if that was a goal, then I'd accomplish it by explicitly making the level harder and harder to survive on as time passes.

[fizzix]

My instinctive reaction to that is "too complicated". I've never known anybody use birth_no_stores without also playing ironman; it seems a truly pointless option.

Yes, my plan is to replace birth_no_stores. Even with birth_no_stores there's nothing stopping a player from not using the stores at all. There's no effect that can't be replicated by the player doing nothing.

birth_no_upstairs adds the change in gameplay that going down any downstairs, including the one in town, drops you off at MAX_DEPTH + 1.

Oddly birth_no_recall also can be mocked up without setting the option, as you could merely just ignore recall items (you could accidentally zap the rod I guess which would be annoying). Right now birth_ironman affects scrolls of teleport level.

[debo]

This. Thanks debo, I've been having a hell of a day at work, and I just burst out laughing. I've always wondered what would be the rationale for introducing a half-giant race to V, and there it is. In your quiver: (n) Two yeeks (2d4) (+0, +0).

I don't remember if there's such thing as a fire yeek, but if there is, we have branded ammo taken care of right there.

[Timo Pietilä]

The statement is incorrect anyway: NetHack has no such timer or pressure to move forward or play at a certain pace.

It has. Or at least it had, haven't played in many years. Method of driving people down was to increase monster deadliness over time. You can stay at low levels, but because dungeon is not changing you won't find anything new into level you are, but monsters you encounter get worse and worse until you die unless you dive.

Pace of forced dive is a lot slower than it is in Sil though. You probably wont notice it unless you dive really slowly. Also Sil doesn't "encourage" people to dive, it just plain forces that to happen.

Sil does feel more like Nethack than Angband to me. Everything has changed in it, even command set. It is IMO more a game of luck than game of skill.

But enough of this, I just got aggravated about OP post "Making V play more like Sil". IMO that would ruin Angband. Sil does have some neat features with combat and I like the "purchase skill" thing, but other than that it is way inferior game to Angband in my perspective. I think the worst thing in Sil is that you can't "prepare" for fights. The only strategic choices you have left in Sil are place you fight (if you manage to run to that place and don't get caught between two groups) and run away when things get too hot. Only "safe" thing is to use stairs to cool things down, and if you use stairs Sil forces you to dive. So I hate Sil gameplay.

[Timo Pietilä]

I think this is a little harsh. What parts are incomplete?

UI. Many things in that are half-done, and have been that way for some time now. Especially visual tweaking.

ID-by-use. It is there, but no-one can actually use it because it is way too slow method for actually ID things: If I have gazillion items from dragon pit or vault loot I can't ID-by-use every single item to find out if they are any good.

Squelch. Dragon armors should be in their own category and descriptions about different options are confusing: what does "Excellent with no high resist" actually do for weapons? How do I set squelch so that it doesn't squelch boots with FA, but does squelch boots with stealth. Maybe I want to keep Cloak with with resist shard, but not with stealth. Refinement is not there.

Maybe a keep- or ignore-list for item flags could be used for refinement. If item has something you absolutely want, like ESP, you keep it even if it is junk otherwise. Or if you have stealth from zillion sources or are using item with aggravation, you no longer care if item has stealth-bonus. You have almost perfect resistance coverage, but lack something then you might want to at least check any item that does give you that something.

Features are there, but they have never been really finished.

[Timo Pietilä]

I do find it doubly amusing that Timo complains of Vanilla development having stagnated...within a week of a new version having been released. Oh well!

Development has been slow IMO. It took over a year to move from 3.3.0 to 3.4.0, and between those two not much happened to unfinished features, like visual tweaking UI, squelch and ID-by-use.

[tungtn]

Monster difficulty in NetHack is the average of the character level and dungeon level, so shallow dungeon levels are always safer than later ones. My point is that for most of a game of NetHack, staying or going anywhere is completely the player's choice; Sil hews much closer to Shiren the Wanderer or Brogue, where dawdling will cause you to starve. Anyway, it's no big deal, I was just pointing out that your statement just mischaracterizes NetHack a little bit.

Back on topic, for what little it's worth (I've only played vanilla Angband for a few months before quitting at hounds), I feel Angband should develop to be a better Angband, mostly because if it doesn't it will alienate long-time players. For game that's been around as long as Angband, that likely means more interface and option changes and less to gameplay.

Sentiments like those in the first post tend to birth variants, which I think is a good thing: the people who enjoy Sil can play Sil, people like me who enjoy Halls of Mist can play that, and those who enjoy Angband warts-and-all can still play that. Like attracts like; people bothered by what they see as flaws in the main game have a wealth of variants to choose from.

[half]

Sentiments like those in the first post tend to birth variants, which I think is a good thing: the people who enjoy Sil can play Sil, people like me who enjoy Halls of Mist can play that, and those who enjoy Angband warts-and-all can still play that. Like attracts like; people bothered by what they see as flaws in the main game have a wealth of variants to choose from.

...and people who like Angband V 3.4.0 can play Angband V 3.4.0.

The 'people can play what they want to, so leave Angband alone' argument really doesn't work. Perhaps we should leave Angband alone, but this cannot be the reason why.

[half]

Also Sil doesn't "encourage" people to dive, it just plain forces that to happen.

Not in the sense that 'dive' is typically used on these forums. You can easily clear all the levels in Sil, which is the paradigm that is normally considered opposite to diving. You can probably clear them all three times each. There is a difference between having a clock at all and having a fast clock.

Sil does feel more like Nethack than Angband to me.

Only if Nethack is thought of as 'something different to Angband' or 'something I don't like'. People on a Nethack forum would laugh at this statement.

It is IMO more a game of luck than game of skill.

This is quite harsh to the developers, and you are the only person I know to hold this view. Do you therefore back it up with some great arguments and examples? No. You also don't seem to have played the game very much at all in fact, and to have various false beliefs about what is actually in the game.

I think the worst thing in Sil is that you can't "prepare" for fights.

I can... I'm not sure why you can't.

The only strategic choices you have left in Sil are place you fight (if you manage to run to that place and don't get caught between two groups) and run away when things get too hot.

Um... We are talking about Sil right? Have you played this game? It has significantly more strategic choice that Angband. This is achieved through having long-term choices that last through many levels of the game. In Angband there is character creation, but nothing after that which is on a strategic (as opposed to tactical) scale. If you learn the wrong spell, you can learn the others later, if you don't want to wear an artefact, you simply put it in your home for later etc. In Sil, the Skill choices and Ability choices are a dramatic strategic choice for your character. Even equipment is much more of a strategic choice as you have to leave much of it behind (including artefacts).

Or you probably meant tactical choice, but even then there are far more tactical choices open to you than this. This is a really crazy comment. I don't know what to say. Sometimes over the years, you have had some very useful and insightful points on roguelike gameplay, but then there are also posts like this one, which are just attacks without substance. I future I guess I just won't respond unless you make a substantive criticism.

So I hate Sil gameplay.

I'm glad you 'hate' it based on such sound reasoning! To each his own.

[Timo Pietilä]

...and people who like Angband V 3.4.0 can play Angband V 3.4.0.

The 'people can play what they want to, so leave Angband alone' argument really doesn't work. Perhaps we should leave Angband alone, but this cannot be the reason why.

I don't see anyone saying that angband should be left alone. Where did you get that?

[Timo Pietilä]

It is IMO more a game of luck than game of skill.

This is quite harsh to the developers, and you are the only person I know to hold this view. Do you therefore back it up with some great arguments and examples? No.

Yes I did, and reason why you don't hear people saying bad things about your precious game is that most people that don't like it just shut up and don't play it. Only reason I commented here was that there was a threat that Angband would change more like Sil.

I think the worst thing in Sil is that you can't "prepare" for fights.

I can... I'm not sure why you can't.

OK, how?

The only strategic choices you have left in Sil are place you fight (if you manage to run to that place and don't get caught between two groups) and run away when things get too hot.

Um... We are talking about Sil right? Have you played this game?

Yes I have.

It has significantly more strategic choice that Angband.

That's bullshit IMO. Perhaps you haven't played Angband.

This is achieved through having long-term choices that last through many levels of the game. In Angband there is character creation, but nothing after that which is on a strategic (as opposed to tactical) scale.

This proves my point, you haven't played enough Angband.

Or you probably meant tactical choice, but even then there are far more tactical choices open to you than this.

Which are?

[LostTemplar]

Some time ago there was a discussion here about how angband forces people to dive.

[Nick]

So, do Balrogs have wings, or not?

[Timo Pietilä]

Some time ago there was a discussion here about how angband forces people to dive.

"Forces" is a bit too strong word for what angband does. You can dive and you should dive (at your own pace), but there really isn't anything forcing that. Except one thing that does force a dive: Morgoth appears only at 5000'. You can't win without at least one long dive.

[Timo Pietilä]

So, do Balrogs have wings, or not?

Absolutely not!