A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[Derakon]

The issue is really one of display. Both the launcher display, and the slay display, assume that they are the only sources of damage multiplication. In the absence of slays, a light crossbow will triple your damage -- you go from x1 to x3. So putting "x3" in the name makes sense. Likewise, in the absence of a launcher, a slay will double or triple your damage; putting "x2" in the description for Slay Evil makes sense. Combining the two is where you get into trouble; it'd be really unintuitive to most users to have the rule be "add up the relevant multipliers, then subtract 1".

You could represent multipliers differently -- "a Light Crossbow (+x2)", for example. But then the display looks clunky.

[Oramin]

I agree with you that triples damage should be adds +200% damage but then I also think that multiplication of the arrow damage w/out multiplication of the launcher bonus makes more sense.

[DaviddesJ]

Of course, it makes no significant difference for game balance whether the slay/launcher combination does x5 base damage or x6 base damage. Doing it "wrong" bugs me because I'm a mathematician and internal consistency "feels" better, even when it's irrelevant. This sort of intuition about how things should be is very useful in technical work, but here it's purely aesthetic. Anyway there is no point in belaboring it further; I made my point and either people agree or they don't.

[Timo Pietilä]

Slight correction here:

Actually this:

(  v   +   |- first x3 --|) + (  v   +  |- second x3 -|)
( base +    base  +  base ) + ( base +   base  +  base )

both individually for total of 6.

Of course, the *correct* behaviour is... whatever gives best game-balance.

Agreed.

[kaypy]

Slight correction here:

  What it would do without any multiplier
   | 
   v   +   |- first x3 --| + |----- second x3 ----|
  base   +   base + base   +   base + base + base

Or to put some numbers to it:

If a shot does 4 damage unmodified (thrown?).
Then with a 3x modifier it would do 12, increasing by 8
With two 3x modifiers, it would do 24, increasing by 12

So the second modifier is half again more effective than the first.

Of course, the *correct* behaviour is... whatever gives best game-balance.

[Timo Pietilä]

Your point is just, "I don't care about the inconsistency"? That's fine. I don't expect everyone to care about everything.

It's not inconsistency. Both x3 add base damage, so it is base twice + 2* base twice. Total of 6* base.

|----- first x3 -----| + |----- second x3 ----|
  base + base + base   +   base + base + base

[DaviddesJ]

Answer to that is "who cares" (besides you). Launcher has multiplier. Slay is another multiplier. Add them. Then multiply the base damage with it. That's how it is done. That's the mechanism. Now did you get the point?

Your point is just, "I don't care about the inconsistency"? That's fine. I don't expect everyone to care about everything.

[Timo Pietilä]

No, I don't get the point.

A slay 3x power adds twice the base damage as the bonus from the slay power. Therefore generating a total of 3x the base damage.

Answer to that is "who cares" (besides you). Launcher has multiplier. Slay is another multiplier. Add them. Then multiply the base damage with it. That's how it is done. That's the mechanism. Now did you get the point?

[Oramin]

If you wanted to tone down the damage, wouldn't it make more sense to keep multiplying the missile damage and not apply the launcher multiple to the bonus damage on the launcher itself (like the way I thought it used to work)?

That will also avoid the 5x vs 6x discussion you folks are having.

[DaviddesJ]

Yes, but 1x is not multiplier. It is just base damage. Get the point?

No, I don't get the point.

A slay 3x power adds twice the base damage as the bonus from the slay power. Therefore generating a total of 3x the base damage.

If you combine this with a launcher with a 3x multiplier, then it should add an additional amount of twice the base damage, therefore producing the equivalent of a 5x multiplier. Not 6x.

One way to see that the 6x result (3+3) is wrong is to imagine that you had a slay 1x power, which is the same as having no slay power at all. If you combine a slay 1x power (i.e., nothing) with a 3x launcher, you should get 3x, not 4x.

You can see the same thing in other ways, too. This is just one easy way to understand it.

[Timo Pietilä]

Weapons without slay ability do 1x damage. If they did 0x damage, then the base damage would be completely ignored, because 0 times anything is 0. A slay 3x bonus multiplies the base damage by 3x; it doesn't add an additional 3x the base damage (which would be 4x total). Unless I'm really missing something here.

Yes, but 1x is not multiplier. It is just base damage. Get the point?

[DaviddesJ]

That's 0x without slay. Damage alone is not multiplier.

Weapons without slay ability do 1x damage. If they did 0x damage, then the base damage would be completely ignored, because 0 times anything is 0. A slay 3x bonus multiplies the base damage by 3x; it doesn't add an additional 3x the base damage (which would be 4x total). Unless I'm really missing something here.

[Timo Pietilä]

Shouldn't 3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 5x damage? Not 6x.

After all, 1x without slay + 3x from launcher = 3x damage. Not 4x.

That's 0x without slay. Damage alone is not multiplier.

[DaviddesJ]

You recall incorrectly. In vanilla launcher multiplier has always multiplied the entire damage. In fact that was toned down a bit recently, is also used to multiply slay multipliers (3x from slay * 3x from launcher = 9x entire damage) now it adds to that (3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 6x entire damage).

Shouldn't 3x from slay + 3x from launcher = 5x damage? Not 6x.

After all, 1x without slay + 3x from launcher = 3x damage. Not 4x.

[Timo Pietilä]

If it does, then this is a recent change.

You can recognize O-style combat because instead of getting pluses to-dam, you get pluses to "deadliness".

It was some variant I used to play quite a lot...Sangband maybe? Not the O itself.