A Few Questions/Observations From an Old Player

[HugoVirtuoso]

I'm pretty sure that Vanilla's scoring algorithm is bogus. I think it mostly just takes into account your experience and max depth.

Take heart -- it used to take into account your money!

I wonder if Vanilla takes into account the # of uniques killed as well as artifacts collected?

[Derakon]

I'm pretty sure that Vanilla's scoring algorithm is bogus. I think it mostly just takes into account your experience and max depth.

Take heart -- it used to take into account your money!

[Oramin]

So, how exactly are the high scores determined?

My Kobold Warrior just finished at about 4 million turns (by far the fastest) and is in 6th place. My Dwarf Priest and H-T Warrior are at about 5.7 million turns and are in 1st and 2nd. The others are on the order of 10 million+ turns.

[Oramin]

Ok, you two, I've started a new thread for the two of you. Take your "discussion" over there.

[DaviddesJ]

I would say that "those who disagree with me are stupid" is the kind of argument we could do without.

[Timo Pietilä]

I was watching a pigeon fly into a glass window the other day. It tried over & over again without getting anywhere. For some reason the 2 of you arguing reminded me of this.

DaviddesJ is just proving Magnates point here. Don't worry, I'm not going to continue this.

[Timo Pietilä]

The base damage doesn't get "added twice" with ordinary arrows. You get x3 damage from the x3 launcher, but you don't count the base damage again when firing ordinary arrows.

Of course because then there is only one multiplier in effect. Except in case when slay is in shooter.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" with branded arrows. You add elemental damage from the branding, but you still don't count the base damage twice.

Says you. Code disagrees.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" when using slay melee weapons. They can get x3 base damage from the slay power, but they don't count the base damage twice.

Melee-weapons use completely different rules, there the "base" is only dice.

It's hard to see why slay arrows should be the only case where, in addition to the slay bonus, you increase the damage by adding the base damage twice.

Because slay and shooter multiplier are two different effects. If you are too stupid to understand this point of view, then it's your problem. I'm done repeating this. I think everyone else has already understood what is the case here.

[DaviddesJ]

I look forward to it happening here - you're 0 for 2 so far but it's early days yet.

I'm wrong pretty often, maybe more as I get older, but it still generally takes me more than two tries.

This past weekend was my 50th birthday, I attended my 30th reunion at MIT and I was elected to the board of the university. So I'm in a pretty good mood regardless of what people say on the internets. But it would be nice if we could all get along, especially if we enjoy the same things. I do rub some people the wrong way, I know that much.

I'll try to make some more mistakes soon. Almost everyone here knows more about modern Angband than I do, I'm sure it will happen.

[Oramin]

As I indicated, why not avoid the whole issue?

Let the launcher multiplier apply to the missile damage and simply add the launcher bonus damage in afterwards.

For example with Belthronding (X3) (+20, +22) (+1)

(or whatever the format is for an extra shot)

Applying the multiplier only to the arrow damage would reduce the per round output (assuming 2 shots) by 88 points.

[wobbly]

The base damage doesn't get "added twice" with ordinary arrows. You get x3 damage from the x3 launcher, but you don't count the base damage again when firing ordinary arrows.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" with branded arrows. You add elemental damage from the branding, but you still don't count the base damage twice.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" when using slay melee weapons. They can get x3 base damage from the slay power, but they don't count the base damage twice.

It's hard to see why slay arrows should be the only case where, in addition to the slay bonus, you increase the damage by adding the base damage twice.

I was watching a pigeon fly into a glass window the other day. It tried over & over again without getting anywhere. For some reason the 2 of you arguing reminded me of this.

[Magnate]

I'm often wrong.

Oh good, that's progress. Unfortunately I've yet to see you actually say that in a real situation, despite encountering you over two decades in several different gaming fora (it always amuses me how similar our tastes in games are). I look forward to it happening here - you're 0 for 2 so far but it's early days yet.

If you aren't wrong sometimes, you aren't forming enough opinions.

I'm wrong quite a lot, as hundreds of people here will attest. There are also some posts where I actually acknowledge it.

Happy belated birthday btw - I notice you hit the big 5-0 recently.

[DaviddesJ]

The base damage doesn't get "added twice" with ordinary arrows. You get x3 damage from the x3 launcher, but you don't count the base damage again when firing ordinary arrows.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" with branded arrows. You add elemental damage from the branding, but you still don't count the base damage twice.

The base damage also doesn't get "added twice" when using slay melee weapons. They can get x3 base damage from the slay power, but they don't count the base damage twice.

It's hard to see why slay arrows should be the only case where, in addition to the slay bonus, you increase the damage by adding the base damage twice.

[Timo Pietilä]

Timo:

The easiest way to think about it is that an x3 mutiplier adds 200% damage.

So, an ordinary arrow fired from a long bow is (base + 2 x base).

A slay arrow is (base + 2 x base).

So, for a slay arrow fired from a long bow, you add in the bonus 200% damage twice: base + 2 x base + 2 x base = 5 x base.

That would be true if the base damage doesn't get added twice, which in this case is the case. Looks like this is just POV issue. I treat both multipliers separately as two different individual sources (which is how game treats them), you add the added extras together.

x3 multiplier adds 200%, but it is 300% of the damage.

[nppangband]

I think NPP uses o-combat model. It didn't feel that much different, just shooters suffer big inflation in that model.

I have taken alot from Oangband, but not the combat system.

I did recently make a change where damage multipliers (slays, brands, good/great hits, etc) increase the number of damage dice before the roll, rather than doubling the damage afterthe damage roll. That is an Oangband-combatish change. But NPP doesn't have damage bonuses as percentages.

On that note, for a good/great hits, NPP now rolls the damage twice and takes the higher value. I thought that was a serious flaw.... the player gets a good hit with a 1d6 item, rolls a 1, and doubles it to 2 (plus a small to-hit bonus), and there is nothing special about the final damage calculation.

[Nick]

I'm often wrong. If you aren't wrong sometimes, you aren't forming enough opinions.

This just reminds me of a quote from someone I know slightly:
"If you don't miss a few flights, you're spending too much time in airports"

Completely irrelevant, but there you go.

Sorry Oramin, I'll shut up now