All four rings of power found before 5000'

[Nick]

Maybe the dev-team model is itself the problem. Instead of a single maintainers pet project/vision, it introduced the wants of a whole mass of well intentioned individuals/ideals, and not as much concern for the actual needs of the game. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

Shorter me: more involvement is better in the long term.

[Magnate]

Maybe the dev-team model is itself the problem. Instead of a single maintainers pet project/vision, it introduced the wants of a whole mass of well intentioned individuals/ideals, and not as much concern for the actual needs of the game. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

I don't think this has to be a problem. Admittedly it was a bit chaotic in 3.1 and especially 3.2, but I think we learned from that. We had much more careful control over 3.3 - regular discussions about what should go in it and what should be held back until 3.4. Then we went a step further and created v4, so that the really wacky stuff doesn't even spoil anybody's nightlies.

But we had a lot of energy then, and a lot of momentum. Since xmas we've all been somewhat busy with RL - it's possibly a complete coincidence, but it could have something to do with not having a maintainer leading the team and driving development (which doesn't necessarily mean coding). I don't know. We haven't even managed to have an IRC devteam meeting since November, so we don't have a release manager for 3.4 or anything.

So I too miss a maintainer, but not for quite the same reason.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Half is a nice starting point. Play a little Steamband and get fresh feel for limited drops/limited items. One of my favorite things about Steam is that finding most anything is exciting.

I'm going this way with Fay, too. Here's what I've done:

- Drops reduced by a half or so, maybe more.
- Orc hordes usually drop just gold, not items. It was a chore to work through all the drops after killing an orc unique and his followers.
- More ego items, less artifacts. (Important in Fay but probably not in v4!)
- Scrolls and potions usually come in piles.
- Removed a lot of boring items. For example, I removed Potion of CLW and Scroll of Bless, reasoning that CSW and Chant do the same thing and are more interesting.

Less quantity, more quality.

[BlueFish]

It's still a hard game, for those who like the excitement of taking chances.

I guess most veteran players end up defining "hard" as "playing perfectly and conservatively, knowing how each monster attacks, avoiding any challenging fight, and still having a decent chance of losing due to not finding any items".

I'm not positive that sounds like a lot of fun to me.

But I do have issues with the artifact drop frequency. They supersede ego items way too quickly.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

But I do have issues with the artifact drop frequency. They supersede ego items way too quickly.

That's what I noticed in Fay, too. It's based on Ey, which is based on a really old version of Vanilla. I think this problem has been in Angband for a long time.

Quite often I found an artifact weapon or armour before I had found any ego equipment. I found it weird. Happily it was easy enough to tweak the probabilities.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

How can one actually judge the difficulty level of Angband? Isn't the player always setting his own difficulty?

I think only a couple of variants, like Ironband and Fay, actually have a difficulty level set in stone. In other *bands you can only compare the difficulty level of your own particular playing style and diving speed to the earlier versions.

Maybe in the current Angband you should be just diving much faster than what the veterans are used to. I don't see that as a bad thing as such.

[BlueFish]

How can one actually judge the difficulty level of Angband? Isn't the player always setting his own difficulty?

I think this is the central question of this debate about angband being "nerfed". It's a question expert angband players really need to reflect on before they complain.

[BlueFish]

Angband at its heart, if one doesn't set special restrictions, is not a battle between @ and Morgoth.

It's a battle between the human player and boredom.

Angband, even if all the expert players get their wish and item drops are cut to 1% of their current frequency, can be trivial for those with long life spans and infinite patience.

Make no mistake please, Angband is a HARD game for newbies and veterans alike, if those veterans haven't intentionally munchkin'ed their play styles to maximize chance of winning.

I've seen experts brag here about passing up vaults because they weren't ready for them.

I've never done that. I never will.

And that's a beauty of angband - vaults are rare enough that it feels right to view them as opportunities rather than something to be maximized on a cost/benefit analysis. If they showed up every level, one would have to be a borg about it, logically deducing the risk and only tackling when you want to.

That's an important facet of "balance" - frequency of vaults. As is the rate at which artifacts supersede egos. Those sorts of things deserve careful consideration from the maintainers.

Note, it's only "balance". Not "difficulty balance". Difficulty in vanilla angband is sort of a vacuous concept, as Mikko so astutely observed.

Making the game difficult for those who don't take chances and who have essentially perfect knowledge of every game mechanic, is not something that requires careful consideration.

Years ago, on the angband and nethack boards on Usenet, there was a common perception that those who asked questions were stupid, and those who lacked knowledge of the more intimate mechanics were newbs to be scorned. I was there, I know. I've been playing roguelikes for decades. I've logged countless hours in moria, angband, nethack, etc.

The complaining about how "easy" angband has become is an evolution of that elitist attitude.

I play to have fun. Not to maximize my chance of winning.

If you think Angband is super easy, maybe you've just wrung your fun out of it. Maybe it's time to move on. It happens. You probably never consider how the changes you want would affect any new player - including the player you used to be.

[Derakon]

I find your presumption that veteran players are elitists to be insulting, BlueFish. Is the game still hard for inexperienced players? Absolutely. But this isn't just a game to be played once and then set aside. Experienced players expect it to be fun for years, if not decades, of play -- because it has been so in the past. If we're losing replayability, then that's a serious problem. It's not just the whinging of a few people who can't accept that the unwashed masses might be able to enjoy their precious gem.

Difficulty in Angband is not a vacuous concept. Certainly to some extent you can decide how difficult the game is. But the game has rules that you have no control over, and those rules constitute a significant portion of the difficulty of the game. More importantly, it's not always fun for veterans to have to "hold back" because the game isn't capable of being challenging on its own.

If you don't think that reducing the drop quality affects the difficulty of the game, then you clearly haven't played with a wide variety of drop qualities. Let me tell you -- there's a huge difference between a game where you get 5 artifacts and 50 ego items, and one where you get 50 artifacts and 500 ego items. I've played both; I can directly compare. Sure, in the former game I could have just done a ton of grinding and eventually gotten all that awesome gear that I was just handed in the latter game. But why would I do that? I was having a blast struggling to survive.

In any event, the goal is not to make the game difficult in ways that require you to memorize tons of pointless trivia. My biggest beef with NetHack is that expert play looks nothing like amateur play. Expert players are scribbling "Elbereth" in the dust, dipping longswords into fountains, identifying items by dangling them in front of shopkeepers, eating wraith corpses, wishing for markers, and dozens of other weird obscure things that combine to give them a massive edge over the newbies.

In contrast, the difference between expert and amateur play in Angband should be about how well you know the risks and payoffs of a given scenario. Is it really worth spending an extra turn in melee with this titan? How likely is that sword behind Azriel to be useful? That kind of thing. Angband has, especially of late, a very transparency-oriented approach to game design. The rules are all laid out in front of you, and your skill is measured by your ability to navigate within them. It is entirely possible to make the game harder without making it less transparent, and that's what we've been trying to do.

[BlueFish]

I find your presumption that veteran players are elitists to be insulting, BlueFish. Is the game still hard for inexperienced players? Absolutely. But this isn't just a game to be played once and then set aside. Experienced players expect it to be fun for years, if not decades, of play -- because it has been so in the past. If we're losing replayability, then that's a serious problem. It's not just the whinging of a few people who can't accept that the unwashed masses might be able to enjoy their precious gem.

Difficulty in Angband is not a vacuous concept. Certainly to some extent you can decide how difficult the game is. But the game has rules that you have no control over, and those rules constitute a significant portion of the difficulty of the game. More importantly, it's not always fun for veterans to have to "hold back" because the game isn't capable of being challenging on its own.

If you don't think that reducing the drop quality affects the difficulty of the game, then you clearly haven't played with a wide variety of drop qualities. Let me tell you -- there's a huge difference between a game where you get 5 artifacts and 50 ego items, and one where you get 50 artifacts and 500 ego items. I've played both; I can directly compare. Sure, in the former game I could have just done a ton of grinding and eventually gotten all that awesome gear that I was just handed in the latter game. But why would I do that? I was having a blast struggling to survive.

Right, that's the emotional calculus every player employs. from virtually their first game. It's a calculus not devoted to how to survive, but about how to continue to have fun. Every player at every level knows how to continue to survive - stay shallow, move into monsters, hope they drop something out of depth and awesome. Wash rinse repeat.

But they don't do that, because surviving isn't the point. Having fun is. Nobody knows what the point of the game is before they start playing. They start playing not to kill Morgoth. They start playing to have fun.

In contrast, the difference between expert and amateur play in Angband should be about how well you know the risks and payoffs of a given scenario. Is it really worth spending an extra turn in melee with this titan? How likely is that sword behind Azriel to be useful? That kind of thing. Angband has, especially of late, a very transparency-oriented approach to game design. The rules are all laid out in front of you, and your skill is measured by your ability to navigate within them. It is entirely possible to make the game harder without making it less transparent, and that's what we've been trying to do.

This sort of min/maxing has an obvious conclusion, which is to never take chances. For people who've logged less than a few thousand hours in these games, "not taking chances" means staying shallow. That's boring. It's why nobody does that. For new players, taking that staircase presents them with new challenges - the unknown. As such, it is risky, as all unknown things necessarily are.

For those who've logged thousands of hours and who've memorized every monster, their attacks, the speed mechanics, whether monsters can double-move, how much damage a room of monsters could possibly do, etc etc etc, "not taking chances" has nothing to do with the unknown. There's nothing they can do to present themselves with the unknown.

So what exactly would seem "hard" to them?

This is what I'm not so sure about. And honestly I'm not so sure they're sure about it either.

They want stat drains to be as annoying as before? Really?

Because that wasn't fun at all. From a game design standpoint, from this veteran player's perspective, which is shared by pretty much any new player, stat drain that was tedious (as opposed to difficult) to restore, was not fun. It was only annoying. Never "difficult". Only annoying (i.e. boring). "Difficult" enters into it if you're playing ironman. Not vanilla rules.

I agree that item drop rates are an important part of balance, and greater or lesser rates will relate to how "fun" players find the game. The more expert players will find the game more fun with lesser drop rates. Newbies will probably find the game more fun with greater rates. That's a difficult thing to please everybody with. I think artifacts should drop more rarely than they do currently, but only because they obviate an important part of the game - egos. Egos may as well not exist. That's a shame. It reduces the richness of the game.

Another important part of balance is the rate at which items drop vs the rate at which players gain levels. If you have to kill so many monsters that your level rises much faster than your equipment quality does, you can't dive at a rate commensurate with your level and the game gets boring. So that's "balance". Conversely, if items drop too fast and you're too equipment-powerful compared to your level, the game would be too "easy". This depends on skill level and risk tolerance, since, with good knowledge of monsters, one can dive very fast, avoid danger, and still kill deep safe monsters to get good equipment. No change here will make the game more fun for everybody. At some point, you weigh the game towards expert players who intentionally refuse to take chances, and away from others.

With perfect knowledge of the game and a desire never to take chances (a desire rooted firmly in maximizing wins per games started), it is very unclear to me what exactly "difficult" means. And for all my reading of discussions over the years, I have yet to see a compelling answer to that question. If anybody would like to offer one, I'd be glad to consider it.

[Philip]

Your post has a number of good points and good questions. I'll try to adress them to the best of my ability.

Right, that's the emotional calculus every player employs. from virtually their first game. It's a calculus not devoted to how to survive, but about how to continue to have fun. Every player at every level knows how to continue to survive - stay shallow, move into monsters, hope they drop something out of depth and awesome. Wash rinse repeat.

Well, at dlevel 1 in Oangband I've met Beastmasters, who can summon ants and the like. I could have been in big trouble. I've also met crows of durthang, who are fast monsters with a light curse as a spell and a not too shabby melee attack.(If this is not possible in V, please put it back. The likelyhood of finding a great out of depth object should be the same as that of finding an out of depth monster.
But yes, diving is more fun and that is why players do it.

But they don't do that, because surviving isn't the point. Having fun is. Nobody knows what the point of the game is before they start playing. They start playing not to kill Morgoth. They start playing to have fun.

Can't really argue with this point.

This sort of min/maxing has an obvious conclusion, which is to never take chances. For people who've logged less than a few thousand hours in these games, "not taking chances" means staying shallow. That's boring. It's why nobody does that. For new players, taking that staircase presents them with new challenges - the unknown. As such, it is risky, as all unknown things necessarily are.


For those who've logged thousands of hours and who've memorized every monster, their attacks, the speed mechanics, whether monsters can double-move, how much damage a room of monsters could possibly do, etc etc etc, "not taking chances" has nothing to do with the unknown. There's nothing they can do to present themselves with the unknown.

There is: challenge games.

So what exactly would seem "hard" to them?

Now? Nothing. Before? Winning, or winning Ironman. Winning without stores.

This is what I'm not so sure about. And honestly I'm not so sure they're sure about it either.

They want stat drains to be as annoying as before? Really?

A) Maybe, why not? It teaches players to build stockpiles in their homes, makes finding a restore potion, or even better, a stat potion in the dungeon much more fun. Red nagas, frogs et al. are now completely trivial. Should they be? Why are they still in the game?
B) It's not always trivial to gain a new level, or gain levels after level 50.

Because that wasn't fun at all. From a game design standpoint, from this veteran player's perspective, which is shared by pretty much any new player, stat drain that was tedious (as opposed to difficult) to restore, was not fun. It was only annoying. Never "difficult". Only annoying (i.e. boring). "Difficult" enters into it if you're playing ironman. Not vanilla rules.

Difficult can enter into it also if you decide not to wait for the stores to restock and don't have 1 or 2 of each restore potion in your home. It was annoying, but any change to make the game harder now would be labeled as annoying, simply because for many people hard=annoying.

I agree that item drop rates are an important part of balance, and greater or lesser rates will relate to how "fun" players find the game. The more expert players will find the game more fun with lesser drop rates. Newbies will probably find the game more fun with greater rates. That's a difficult thing to please everybody with. I think artifacts should drop more rarely than they do currently, but only because they obviate an important part of the game - egos. Egos may as well not exist. That's a shame. It reduces the richness of the game.

If things are truly as you say, shouldn't it be easy enough to add a birth option to reduce drop rates, or reduce quality of drops, or make drops based on monster level, not dungeon level.

Another important part of balance is the rate at which items drop vs the rate at which players gain levels. If you have to kill so many monsters that your level rises much faster than your equipment quality does, you can't dive at a rate commensurate with your level and the game gets boring. So that's "balance". Conversely, if items drop too fast and you're too equipment-powerful compared to your level, the game would be too "easy". This depends on skill level and risk tolerance, since, with good knowledge of monsters, one can dive very fast, avoid danger, and still kill deep safe monsters to get good equipment. No change here will make the game more fun for everybody. At some point, you weigh the game towards expert players who intentionally refuse to take chances, and away from others.

I feel like an expert player. I don't refuse to take chances. Refusing to melee a floating eye without FA is not refusing chances. So is not meleeing a homonculous without FA. If you want to weaken diving, weaken detection. Don't show everything. Show monsters colour but don't allow 'l'ooking at them.

With perfect knowledge of the game and a desire never to take chances (a desire rooted firmly in maximizing wins per games started), it is very unclear to me what exactly "difficult" means. And for all my reading of discussions over the years, I have yet to see a compelling answer to that question. If anybody would like to offer one, I'd be glad to consider it.

Well, diving was invented to maximize wins per time, although eddie has some pretty impressive win streaks.
But difficult means that every problem can't be solved with a tap of a key, that you have obstacles that you have to think about to overcome. Silband does this very well. Oangband and Sangband do too.

Also, what's up with making a new combat system for V? What's wrong with Ocombat?

[Magnate]

Also, what's up with making a new combat system for V? What's wrong with Ocombat?

O combat uses plusses in a nonlinear way. This was a big problem for some people - and one of them designed a new combat system which has all the advantages of O combat (properly distinguishing between weapons) and avoids this drawback. O combat also uses a "blows table", with the cliff-edges that that brings. The new system has a completely smooth spectrum of blows, which IMO is a huge improvement.

I think this debate about difficulty is very interesting. I think most veteran players do not intend to appear elitist - but I agree with BlueFish that it's impossible for someone with a decade's familiarity with a game to think about it in the same way as a new player. I think a small number of vocal veteran players do have a tendency to assume that what makes the game more interesting for them will make it so for everybody, when that isn't the case.

But I do agree with Derakon that difficulty is absolute to some extent. And what we're trying to do is gradually increase the difficulty in ways which will not annoy either new players or veteran players - I think people are gradually realising how hard this is to achieve.

At least we all agree on reducing artifact drops. Hopefully 3.4 will have this about right, or at least a lot closer to right.

[Philip]

Ah thanks for telling me about the reasoning and stuff behind not using O combat.
Note that I'm not a veteran player or anything. I started playing about 4 or so years ago with a year pause a while ago. I just like a hard game.
I agree that it must be hard to make the game harder without annoying anyone.(the mark of a good maintainer is that he is being cursed from all sides, IMO the mark of a great maintainer is when he is not being cursed at all)
Don't forget that reducing artifact drops but keeping high ego drops may cause players to use ego items instead of the artifacts they have. If you find Dethanc, the phial, Wormtounge and Glamdring in the artifacts and boots of speed, a weapon of Gondolin with telepathy you are going to use only one artifact: the Phial.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Another important part of balance is the rate at which items drop vs the rate at which players gain levels. If you have to kill so many monsters that your level rises much faster than your equipment quality does, you can't dive at a rate commensurate with your level and the game gets boring.

I think this is a key observation!

The problem at hand seems to be that there are too many item drops compared to the experience level gains.

You could either reduce item drops or make gaining levels faster, depending on how long you want the full game of Angband to last.

Another aspect you may need to tweak is the dungeon level size. Many players want to explore every dungeon level completely before descending. Another group of players like to dive but when they do find a level they like, they want to clean it completely. I think a perfecly balanced Angband would be enjoyable for both of these groups.

• The player should not gain too many experience levels on a single dungeon level to make that level unchallenging.
• The game should be balanced so that the game stays challenging if you explore each dungeon level once.

I too agree with Derakon that the difficulty is absolute to some extent.

Another reason for reducing drops is that inventory management is too much of a chore. I was mostly happy with the amount of drops in Fay until I played Brogue and saw the light. (Since Fay is too hard rather than too easy, I reduced drops but increased their quality.)

[Magnate]

Don't forget that reducing artifact drops but keeping high ego drops may cause players to use ego items instead of the artifacts they have. If you find Dethanc, the phial, Wormtounge and Glamdring in the artifacts and boots of speed, a weapon of Gondolin with telepathy you are going to use only one artifact: the Phial.

This is ok. The issue is not that artifacts must dominate egos in all cases, but that the choices are meaningful. If you find boots of speed +9 in the first 1000' of the dungeon, you are unlikely to have any meaningful choices about boots for the rest of the game. If this happens once in a thousand games, it's awesome flavour. If it happens every four or five games, it's a problem with item generation.