Is this just really bad luck?

[Derakon]

Uh, =Mouse increases stealth and DEX and nukes your damage. I think you meant =Escaping.

There certainly was a time when =Speed was fairly likely to be your first speed item, and its native depth was (and still is) 80. If I recall correctly, players did a lot of hanging about in the 2500'-3000' range, hoping like hell that a greater vault would be generated and then that one of its 40-levels-OOD items would be =Speed. Then they'd go in and abuse the heck out of Teleport Other (which was still the "affects everything on a line" TO) to try to get the items. Which of course made the rest of the dungeon horribly dangerous, so better hope you don't need to leave the vault in a hurry.

The attempts at retrieving items from a vault that you really weren't ready for were interesting, but the general lulls in the game while you waited for a source of permanent speed to drop weren't. While I do feel that modern Vanilla makes permanent speed too plentiful, the old game was not remotely perfect either.

Of course, in the really old days, +1 speed was modern +10, +2 was +20, no diminishing returns, and massively OOD drops were comparatively plentiful. So if you did find speed, it was guaranteed to be useful speed.

[TJS]

You're never going to get perfect balance in a randomly generated dungeon so which would you rather have a) superior speed and lousy escapes, b) plentiful escapes and lousy speed, or c) great escapes and great speed.

I suppose you could choose a or b. But Angband has always been b.

I'd rather go for the difficulty arising from monsters being dangerous in ways other that being just faster. ie, monsters buffing each other or having to get out of difficult situations by cleverly using items without resoting to using the guaranteed escape button.

I think that too much effort is put into the dungeon caring for the player. If I had a variant I'd put more effort into making it deadly. That ring of the mouse would come with aggravation. Congratulations, you're slightly faster than you were, hope you enjoy it.

I agree with this.

[buzzkill]

It just means that you have to stockpile guaranteed escapes and use them when you first detect a fast and dangerous monster, since they are too fast to be able to outwit tactically.

Well you could always fight it, maybe kill it, or at least neturalize the threat, and if all else fails since there are no shortages of escapes, this isn't a problem at all.

This flip side is that the player is often faster (if only a little) than then monsters they encounter, and paired with the players superior INT, makes most of the game particularly boring.

You're never going to get perfect balance in a randomly generated dungeon so which would you rather have a) superior speed and lousy escapes, b) plentiful escapes and lousy speed, or c) great escapes and great speed.

I suppose you could choose a or b. But Angband has always been b.

I think that too much effort is put into the dungeon caring for the player. If I had a variant I'd put more effort into making it deadly. That ring of the mouse would come with aggravation. Congratulations, you're slightly faster than you were, hope you enjoy it.

[LostTemplar]

It just means that you have to stockpile guaranteed escapes and use them when you first detect a fast and dangerous monster, since they are too fast to be able to outwit tactically.

Were wands of teleport away removed already ? In some rare situations, then monster have high range perception and can pass walls there is best choice to simply give up and switch level, but this also add some fun.

[Timo Pietilä]

Is having a point in the game where the difficulty comes mostly from monsters moving much faster than you a good thing?

It just means that you have to stockpile guaranteed escapes and use them when you first detect a fast and dangerous monster, since they are too fast to be able to outwit tactically.

Except with detection, ESP and stealth. You don't always need to fight or flight, you can also avoid.

That was actually quite fun now that I think of it. A bit like what I did with CrownGV when it was accidentally marked as LV. It usually contained monsters that I couldn't handle, so in order to get to the items I needed to lure them out. It was Fun. And dangerous.

[TJS]

Yeah, and it was +4. The early mixed blessing speed rings are nice to have, fun to use, but I don't know how good they for the game. They would make more sense if a significant number of early monsters could move faster than normal (variable speed).

I remember when I never saw real speed items, just potions once in a while, and finding a staff of speed was like finding an artifact, and I'm not talking about the 1990's either, just a couple of years ago.

Is having a point in the game where the difficulty comes mostly from monsters moving much faster than you a good thing?

It just means that you have to stockpile guaranteed escapes and use them when you first detect a fast and dangerous monster, since they are too fast to be able to outwit tactically.

[buzzkill]

I remember good old times, where first +speed item about dlvl 70 was "oh, nice, I got some luck".

Yeah, and it was +4. The early mixed blessing speed rings are nice to have, fun to use, but I don't know how good they for the game. They would make more sense if a significant number of early monsters could move faster than normal (variable speed).

I remember when I never saw real speed items, just potions once in a while, and finding a staff of speed was like finding an artifact, and I'm not talking about the 1990's either, just a couple of years ago.

[LostTemplar]

I remember good old times, where first +speed item about dlvl 70 was "oh, nice, I got some luck".

[Magnate]

Yes, but not so rare that you don't find any at all. There should be some potions every now and then at any level in the dungeon. Only reason they get less common is that there are a lot more possible items at deeper levels than early levels, there is no change of the rarity of those potions (at least they used to be rather common).

If you dive very quickly through the first ten or twenty dlevs, you can quite easily not find any. Then, as you say, they get a lot rarer because so many other things can drop. I have had whole games without !speed.

[Timo Pietilä]

Aren't potions only common early, then become harder to find?

Yes, but not so rare that you don't find any at all. There should be some potions every now and then at any level in the dungeon. Only reason they get less common is that there are a lot more possible items at deeper levels than early levels, there is no change of the rarity of those potions (at least they used to be rather common).

[buzzkill]

That is not normal. Potions of speed should be very common, and staves are relatively common.

Aren't potions only common early, then become harder to find? and I never found staffs to be 'relatively common' at 41, maybe 50's, 60's.

[Timo Pietilä]

I hadn't found any temporary speed items either, actually...

That is not normal. Potions of speed should be very common, and staves are relatively common.

[Therem Harth]

I hadn't found any temporary speed items either, actually...

[Timo Pietilä]

That's actually absolutely normal. You shouldn't be finding any speed items that early.

...except those that temporarily haste you: potions of speed and staves of speed. If you haven't seen even those then there is something wrong. Otherwise, normal.

[Therem Harth]

That's actually absolutely normal. You shouldn't be finding any speed items that early.

Ah okay... And of course all the pits and stuff will make things harder if speed items are depth dependent. Thanks.