Might monster fleeing be a bad thing?

[BlueFish]

I have a pet theory that monsters fleeing when they are low on HPs adds nothing to the game of any value, and only makes it slightly more annoying to kill things. Does that sound plausible to anybody else?

[bio_hazard]

I have a pet theory that monsters fleeing when they are low on HPs adds nothing to the game of any value, and only makes it slightly more annoying to kill things. Does that sound plausible to anybody else?

That sounds more like an "opinion" than a "theory".

It does slow the game some, but it also adds some variation to monster behavior. I would not want to see it disappear. However, I could definitely imagine more sophisticated behavior associated with monster fear. For example, have the whole group of snagas run away, rather than one at a time. Have monsters have a memory of YOU, and obviously over-matched intelligent monsters do things like aggravate/summon, or run towards higher level monsters, or even disappear up/down stairs or secret doors.

[debo]

Running monsters have saved my behind any number of times, and I am still very new to Angband They block hallways, stay out of melee range (in the case when it's a fleeing unique), and just generally sow confusion that I can use in my favor

[BlueFish]

That sounds more like an "opinion" than a "theory".

I guess I elevated it in my head to a "theory" because it seems like from a game design standpoint, monster fleeing due to low HP adds nothing desirable to the game. It's so ubiquitous though, and so annoying, I think there should be compelling reasons for it. I just don't see any such reason.

If playing Angband is like driving somewhere in a car, monster fleeing due to low HP is like having stoplights every block.

[buzzkill]

If playing Angband is like driving somewhere in a car, monster fleeing due to low HP is like having stoplights every block.

But stoplights do serve a purpose. The problem is weak AI. The light is programmed to turn red just as you approach it. I like the concept monsters fleeing. If nothing else it adds flavor. If would be nice if monsters could 'look' further than 1 turn into the future. Bio_Hazard had some ideas too.

Over time I've learned that if something wants to flee from me, I need to let it go. Eventually it will find it's way back to me, and then it will die (which makes the whole fleeing thing fairly useless).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

In Kamband, fleeing monsters may take the stairs and escape permanently!

[d_m]

I agree that fleeing is a little broken currently. In fact, in some cases it allows the players to kill something that would have killed them (by managing to get the monster fleeing and then use some archery against it and/or use the free turns to drink potions).

If I were going to rewrite things I would have monsters try to flee to stairs and escape (like Mikko has done), or at least not flee unless they move faster than the player. And I would certainly have them wait longer before coming back for more punishment, and take into account how hurt the player is also.

So I generally agree that this is an AI problem.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

If I were going to rewrite things I would have monsters try to flee to stairs and escape (like Mikko has done)

Not me! I was talking about a really old variant Kamband that I discovered only recently. It's now one of my favourites.

[d_m]

Not me! I was talking about a really old variant Kamband that I discovered only recently. It's now one of my favourites.

Oh heh, I misread your comment. Thanks for correcting my mistake

[bio_hazard]

They should really get a small speed bonus when fleeing (do they already?)

[Derakon]

Ehh, handing out speed bonuses is not to be done lightly, especially when even frightened monsters can take offensive actions.

One effective thing that NPP does is allow frightened monsters to be pushed past by their peers. So you have to wear down that entire group of orcs before you can start killing any of them.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

What if scared creatures that can't flee anywhere would just surrender? Surrendering could be handled just like dying.

That's what happens in many wargames.

[Timo Pietilä]

What if scared creatures that can't flee anywhere would just surrender? Surrendering could be handled just like dying.

That's what happens in many wargames.

Currently if they can't flee they turn back and fight. I prefer that.

I don't see any problem with current fleeing, it just makes killing things a bit more difficult and requires that you carry some sort of ranged attack method. I think that is just a good thing.

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Timo: the current behavior is just fine with me, too. I just got an itch to think aloud about possible alternatives. I'm not really proposing any change for Vanilla -- except fleeing monsters taking the stairs, that just makes sense.

Here's another quick idea: you could have a Charisma check, and if it succeeded, monster would surrender instead of fleeing. Chances for surrendering would be much better if the monster couldn't flee anywhere.

EDIT: The reason I'm interested in monsters surrendering in deadends is that it adds another tactical consideration. It might be a good change for my own variant, FayAngband, that tries to be more tactical.

[buzzkill]

If a monster is to be able to surrender, then the player needs to have a reason to accept surrender since killing the monster would be trivial.
A few thoughts...

Killing a subdued monster should award no XP.
Accepting surrender earns XP plus bonus, but no drop.
In Fay this bonus could be a (% chance) point of lore proficiency.

I could see this as being abused. PC's torturing helpless creatures until they submit.