Why not numeric values for Fighting, Stealth, etc?

[BlueFish]

One frustration I have with Angband are the one-word descriptions of certain stats - I have no idea what "heroic" or "superb" or "great" actually mean, and worse, it's not even always obvious which is better than the other.

Would it be ok to give a numeric stat for those? I'm sure some people will claim to really love the words, and that's fine, but maybe a parenthetical numeric value could be appended.

[fizzix]

A long time ago I made a patch for exactly this. I can do it again if people desire. The reason it was never implemented is that the most relevant information had become available by inspecting monsters. On the inspect screen you are given the %hit chance, provided you know the AC. This is the piece of useful information.

For stealth it's a bit harder, since I couldn't tell you what's the difference between a stealth of 7 and 10. It's hard to convey useful information with a number.

[BlueFish]

A long time ago I made a patch for exactly this. I can do it again if people desire. The reason it was never implemented is that the most relevant information had become available by inspecting monsters. On the inspect screen you are given the %hit chance, provided you know the AC. This is the piece of useful information.

For stealth it's a bit harder, since I couldn't tell you what's the difference between a stealth of 7 and 10. It's hard to convey useful information with a number.

Thanks, I'd love such a patch.

Regarding the usefulness of the number, it's all about relative differences. Regardless of what the numbers mean, fighting of 10 can be reasonably expected to be twice as good as fighting of 5 (within the context of whatever it is that fighting means).

No such relative difference can be inferred between "good" and "great" etc.

I understand that even numeric stats aren't necessarily linear in their effect, but still... there's more information there and it's just plain frustrating to wonder whether "heroic" is better than "legendary" etc. It's like the game taunts you by presenting a stat and then making it literally incomprehensible.

[bulian]

I decided a while ago that the numeric values don't tell you too much.

The most relevant ones for information are probably "fighting" and "shooting" as fizzix pointed out, but if you have probed a monster, inspecting a monster will tell you the % chance to hit (but only for melee, not shooting, I think). Conversely, if you haven't probed a monster (e.g. don't know its AC), would a fighting value of +140 mean anything?

That being said, beyond legendary being the "best", I've never been able to figure out whether "heroic" was better than "superb," and more information is never a bad thing.

[fizzix]

Thanks, I'd love such a patch.

Ok, it may take some time to get around to it. But I'll put it on my to-do list.

[BlueFish]

Ok, it may take some time to get around to it. But I'll put it on my to-do list.

Thanks very much, that'd be awesome.

I've been playing rogues lately, so this probably annoys me more than most. Stealth is as far as i know the only of those word-description stats which is affected by equipment choices - I often want to see the numeric value to judge the effect of equipment changes.

[Derakon]

Legendary > Heroic > Superb > Excellent > Very Good > Good, is the scale, I think. Certainly the top four are accurate.

[Narvius]

I think more fine-grained colour-scaling for the higher grades (so it's apparent which grades are better) would be enough.

[LostTemplar]

Numeric values will barely help here, because it is unclear how good a given number is, same with stats, there is no information in the game how much better is e.g. 18/100 str compared to 18/50, so numbers currently are completely pointless.

[EpicMan]

Not completely pointless - 18/100 is better than 18/50. All of the stats follow a "bigger is better" pattern. I would prefer to see numbers, both because it allows comparison between characters (i.e. comparing my devices stat to that of a lvl-50 mage characters), and because I am a numbers person and enjoy seeing numbers get bigger on my character.

You could still use colors to illustrate the current rankings, i.e. dark red -> red -> orange -> yellow -> green -> blue -> purple or something like that.

I realize the combat system makes these values somewhat obscure, but that might not always be the case. In any case, we give exact dice and plus values for equipment, not just 'good' 'great', etc for damage/AC, even though the numbers are equally obscure for your to-hit chance (and damage is reduced by monster AC, or is that a variant?).

[BlueFish]

Numeric values will barely help here, because it is unclear how good a given number is, same with stats, there is no information in the game how much better is e.g. 18/100 str compared to 18/50, so numbers currently are completely pointless.

This isn't true, please read the thread to understand why numbers are not pointless.

[LostTemplar]

I mean something different e.g. "fighting 400" is something not very informative, if you have "chance to hit Morgoth 72%" instead it is much better, but this can only be placed in monster descriptions or exact formulas should be given somewhere. Btw this is common for all opensource games: developers know all mechanics already and they dont care too much about describing it in help files.

[BlueFish]

I mean something different e.g. "fighting 400" is something not very informative, if you have "chance to hit Morgoth 72%" instead it is much better, but this can only be placed in monster descriptions or exact formulas should be given somewhere. Btw this is common for all opensource games: developers know all mechanics already and they dont care too much about describing it in help files.

please read the thread; mechanics are not the point nor are specific processes.

The specifics do not matter and are understandably inscrutable in any complex system such as Angband's combat system.

But fighting of 15 vs fighting of 10 is more informative to the player than fighting of "heroic" vs fighting of "superb". The latter is meaningless and frustrating; the former is informative because the player can infer that 15 is about 50% better than 10.

[Derakon]

But fighting of 15 vs fighting of 10 is more informative to the player than fighting of "heroic" vs fighting of "superb". The latter is meaningless and frustrating; the former is informative because the player can infer that 15 is about 50% better than 10.

The problem being when 15 isn't actually 50% better than 10 because the algorithms used behind the scenes don't have a linear relationship between skill and effectiveness. One easy example of this is stealth, where every 3 additional points of stealth make you roughly twice as stealthy (that is 13 is twice as good as 10, and 16 is twice as good as 13).

We should be careful not to mislead players with numbers that don't mean what the players think they mean.

[BlueFish]

The problem being when 15 isn't actually 50% better than 10 because the algorithms used behind the scenes don't have a linear relationship between skill and effectiveness. One easy example of this is stealth, where every 3 additional points of stealth make you roughly twice as stealthy (that is 13 is twice as good as 10, and 16 is twice as good as 13).

We should be careful not to mislead players with numbers that don't mean what the players think they mean.

Yes, I admitted that the effect isn't necessarily linear several posts ago. But still, the numbers mean more than words which are essentially synonymous and yet meant to express a scale. Numbers and scales go together way better than synonyms and scales.

Plus, those word stats represent ranges of like 3 or so - numbers are much more precise.