PC Angband 1.4

[Derakon]

I'm not sure why anybody is worried about scumming if there are already options that allow them to remove scumming from the game?

Mostly it's just a question of preventing the player from making certain choices, for their own good. Which sounds bad, but there's a nontrivial number of players out there who feel obliged to make the most optimal in-game decision at any given time, regardless of how fun it actually is (for example, never re-entering the dungeon unless stats and experience points are undrained). In other words, players are playing in such a way that the game is less fun for them; thus, removing the opportunity to make non-fun but optimal decisions improves gameplay for that subset.

[BlueFish]

Mostly it's just a question of preventing the player from making certain choices, for their own good. Which sounds bad, but there's a nontrivial number of players out there who feel obliged to make the most optimal in-game decision at any given time, regardless of how fun it actually is (for example, never re-entering the dungeon unless stats and experience points are undrained). In other words, players are playing in such a way that the game is less fun for them; thus, removing the opportunity to make non-fun but optimal decisions improves gameplay for that subset.

So there are people who know there are options they could set which would make the game more fun for them, but who don't set those options because they're compelled not to make any choice, in-game or birth options, which is sub-optimal?

[BlueFish]

Well, I hope nobody is advocating making Angband harder in a way in which it could be made harder just by setting the appropriate options.

[buzzkill]

Well, I hope nobody is advocating making Angband harder in a way in which it could be made harder just by setting the appropriate options.

If I read that right, I think exactly the opposite is being discussed right now. We'll see where it leads.

[fizzix]

The game already has a 'no scumming' setting of ironman. Now you lose other stuff with ironman, namely the ability to get some very useful stuff from town and store stuff in the home. So it's not ideal. But if you find yourself scumming a lot, and getting bored because you have infinite escapes available, then you should try playing ironman some. At the very least it will broaden your perspective. The main problem with ironman is inventory maintenance, and its punitive enough that I imagine it will not be fun for many players. Certain game mechanics are designed assuming the player can store stuff in the home.

I've been toying around with a 'limited ironman' option that allows access to the town via WoR. However, you can never go upin the dungeon, and every recall and down stairs drags you one level deeper than your current max depth. You cannot recall on dlevel 99 until Sauron is dead, or dlevel 100 until Morgoth is dead. (you should get a warning before descending to these levels).

[Derakon]

So there are people who know there are options they could set which would make the game more fun for them, but who don't set those options because they're compelled not to make any choice, in-game or birth options, which is sub-optimal?

It's more that they don't realize that they're having less fun than they could be. They see "stores don't stock stat restore potions", and instead of thinking "ah, now I don't have to townscum for restoration", they think "but now I'll have to go into the dungeon with drained stats!"

It's not like they're setting out to have less fun, after all.

[d_m]

It's more that they don't realize that they're having less fun than they could be. They see "stores don't stock stat restore potions", and instead of thinking "ah, now I don't have to townscum for restoration", they think "but now I'll have to go into the dungeon with drained stats!"

It's not like they're setting out to have less fun, after all.

Right. This gets back to the fact that there are many different kinds of players, and many different attitudes towards games.

I don't have the link handy, but I think that's a great way to explain some of these changes. Some people are absolutely tortured when a boring but optimal strategy exists (it compels them to use the boring strategy rather than the fun but provably suboptimal strategy).

[dhegler]

Level scumming is going up/down stairs until you get a good level feeling. Because as we all know, level feelings correlate in a meaningful fashion with level quality. Both of the solutions you suggested would "fix" it; I personally favor turning off level feelings just because having stairs vanish behind you seems weird. Though for competitions having disconnected stairs is necessary since otherwise they really lend themselves to abuse.

I find it odd that stairs remain in the same place, but if you go back up them, an entirely new level shows up. To me, it makes more sense to keep connected stairs if there are persistent levels, or make disconnected stairs in the current level implementation.

{Sees a pack of time hounds} "Ah, my stairs didn't vanish... Good. Now I can go back up the stairs since they don't disappear" {confused look when everything looks different when going back up those same stairs}

[fizzix]

{Sees a pack of time hounds} "Ah, my stairs didn't vanish... Good. Now I can go back up the stairs since they don't disappear" {confused look when everything looks different when going back up those same stairs}

Maybe you should abandon the idea of 'stairs.' > and < represent portals that take you to a slightly harder or slightly easier, enclosed area of the dungeon. The portals change location every time anyone uses them, so monsters cannot follow you through a portal.

[Derakon]

Speaking of which, there was a suggestion awhile back to replace Word of Recall with fixed portals in the town that take you to your max depth, and random portals in the dungeon that take you back to town. I still want to try that...I don't suppose anyone looked into how hard it'd be to implement? I seem to recall being intimidated by the need to make a new terrain type.

[fizzix]

Speaking of which, there was a suggestion awhile back to replace Word of Recall with fixed portals in the town that take you to your max depth, and random portals in the dungeon that take you back to town. I still want to try that...I don't suppose anyone looked into how hard it'd be to implement? I seem to recall being intimidated by the need to make a new terrain type.

new terrain types are still brutal, I think. I tried to implement new types a while ago and broke everything. That's not to say that I won't try again.

[nppangband]

Maybe you should abandon the idea of 'stairs.' > and < represent portals that take you to a slightly harder or slightly easier, enclosed area of the dungeon. The portals change location every time anyone uses them, so monsters cannot follow you through a portal.

In classic moria, when you go up or down stairs it has the message "You enter a maze of twisty passages" or something like that. I think that message is long gong, so the "stairs" concept do not appear to make as much sense. The theory is you are not returning to the same level, bu you are merely at the same depth, in a different part of the dungeon.

[Derakon]

The message for Angband is "You enter a maze of [up|down] staircases." We've just read it so many times we don't even notice it any more. I had to double-check the source to make certain.

[d_m]

Speaking of which, there was a suggestion awhile back to replace Word of Recall with fixed portals in the town that take you to your max depth, and random portals in the dungeon that take you back to town. I still want to try that...I don't suppose anyone looked into how hard it'd be to implement? I seem to recall being intimidated by the need to make a new terrain type.

I like that idea as well.

[Timo Pietilä]

Speaking of which, there was a suggestion awhile back to replace Word of Recall with fixed portals in the town that take you to your max depth, and random portals in the dungeon that take you back to town. I still want to try that...I don't suppose anyone looked into how hard it'd be to implement? I seem to recall being intimidated by the need to make a new terrain type.

Why would you need a new terrain type for that? Couldn't you just use a trap that activates for recall without delay for that portal? Just make it impossible to disarm. You would even get a warning for entering it from trap code.

BTW I think we need traps that are impossible to disarm, and also traps that would not necessarily trigger if your skills are high enough entering the grid with a trap. Disarming should be safer than trying to get past without triggering, but given high enough skills/clvl/trap level both could be safe enough that you would not need to always disarm if in hurry. A high level hobbit rogue could walk right thru sea of traps without bothering to disarm them.