Experiences with Frog-knows

[Timo Pietilä]

I just started playing old frog-knows char I had played a long time ago (still at pretty shallow depths at the of the game). It's weird game compared to modern vanilla. Much more simple, but still a good game.

Some differences this far:

- Lantern lite radius is only one. Same with spell that lights up floor.
- Filling lantern doesn't ask what to use, it uses oil if you have any, if not it says that you don't have oil.
- Gaining prayers doesn't ask book, it picks up random spell from all available spells in all the books you are carrying.
- shooting, aiming a wand and spells that require target require that you have targeted something before you do what you do.
- There are primary and secondary weapons and you switch between two with 'x'.
- Priest detects enchantments in items as '{blessed}' (if there is something to detect), not {good}.

- Spell lists are a bit different, for example there is "blind monster" second book spell which I guess is same as confuse monster in current vanilla. More about that after I get this char a bit more advanced.

- Starting stats are different. Dwarf for example doesn't get +2 to WIS, only +1.

2.4.1.  Race Versus Skills and Stats

          Stat, hit dice, and experience points per level modifications due
          to race are listed in the following table.

                      Str  Int  Wis  Dex  Con  Chr  Hit Dice  Rqd Exp/level

          Human        0    0    0    0    0    0      10          +0%
          Half-Elf    -1   +1    0   +1   -1   +1       9         +10%
          Elf         -1   +2   +1   +1   -2   +1       8         +20%
          Hobbit      -2   +2   +1   +3   +2   +1       7         +10%
          Gnome       -1   +2    0   +2   +1   -2       8         +25%
          Dwarf       +2   -3   +1   -2   +2   -3      11         +20%
          Half-Orc    +2   -1    0    0   +1   -4      10         +10%
          Half-Troll  +4   -4   -2   -4   +3   -6      12         +20%
          Dunedain    +1   +2   +1   +2   +3   +2      10         +80%
          High-Elf    +1   +3   -1   +3   +1   +5      10        +100%

          Racial abilities as compared to each other, with 1 the lowest, or
          worst,  and  10 the highest, or best, are listed in the following
          table.

                      Disarm Search Stealth Percep Fight Bows Save Infra

           Human         5      5      5       5     5     5    5  None
           Half-Elf      6      7      7       6     4     6    6  20 feet
           Elf           8      9      7       7     3     9    7  30 feet
           Hobbit       10     10     10      10     1    10   10  40 feet
           Gnome         9      7      9       9     2     8    9  40 feet
           Dwarf         6      8      3       5     9     5    8  50 feet
           Half-Orc      3      5      3       2     8     3    3  30 feet
           Half-Troll    1      1      1       1    10     1    1  30 feet
           Dunedain      9      8      7       8     7     8    5  None
           High-Elf      9      8      8       9     7    10    5  40 feet

Notice difference for High-Elves skill-table:

          Disarm Search Stealth Percep Fight Bows Save Infra
High-Elf      9      8      8       9     7    10    5  40 feet (doesnt mention device)
vs
High-Elf      4      3      3      14    10    25   20  (doesn't mention infravision)

F-K High-Elf is completely different thing than current vanilla High-Elf. (stealth probably works differently in f-k, because starting bonuses are so high. Linear approach I guess).

- Starting game is different too, you can't pick any class with every race.

- Tunneling, digging etc. do not automatically try 10 times (but you can add count to do that), and it feels like tunneling in general is harder in frog-knows than it is in current vanilla (took me 10+ turns to tunnel through rubble with 18/02 STR clvl 12 dwarf priest with mace).

- looking works only for things that you actually see.
- you can't destroy items. There just isn't command for it.
- you need to pick up gold just like any other item.
- non-identical items do not stack. Both inventory and floor. Items can't occupy same grid with anything else (except monsters), including money.
- There are plain junk items laying around (skeletons mainly).
- there are colors, but general dungeon is very dark, different shades of grey.

Generally UI is much weaker than current vanilla, but it works. Having lite radius of only one is real disadvantage compared to current vanilla in early levels.

[nppangband]

IIRC, isn't another major difference no monster health bar? You don't know when something is close to being killed.

[Timo Pietilä]

IIRC, isn't another major difference no monster health bar? You don't know when something is close to being killed.

Yes, that is missing, but you can look at the monster and it says if it is near death or not (somewhat damaged, near death...that kind of verbal description of the monster status)

Also:

- no macros. That makes this really painful to me.

- There are no level feelings. AFAIK F-K is "preserve off" -game so that is evil. You need to check every corner for items. Also there is no item history so you can't see if you have already lost some artifact. That makes rogue ability to detect items with spells very valuable.

- You can't 'I'dentify anything so you can't tell item properties by looking at it. I'm guessing Artifact abilities are left to feeling alone.

- Nothing with charges stack (even wands with same charges).

- Missiles that hit the target are lost.

- Shops have discounts, but prices are pre-haggling prices unless you have managed to get them "fixed" so you can't really tell how much something costs before you actually try to buy it (haggling can be turned off, but it works like auto-haggle, no after-haggle prices visible unless fixed), and items are bought one at the time (stacks of ammo are bought one stack at the time).

- Scrolls and spellbooks stack, but scrolls of recall bought from store didn't stack with unknown stack of recall before I identified them.

- ID scrolls are relatively rare. Common in dungeon as single items, but in stores only temple sells them and it usually runs out of them after five or so scrolls.

- You can't see how many of each item store has.

A werewolf just nearly killed me. I'm at clevel where in 3.2 vanilla that would have been pushover.

- Finding good gear is difficult.

- Store prices are much higher than in current vanilla (even without haggling).

- BM is really random (it is selling a trapped chest which didn't buy).

- Map behaves differently. When you lite a room you see entire room layout immediately, even corners where you don't have LoS (but not monsters in those corners).

- Items left in non-lite area disappear from map when you walk away from them (so you can't see if something picks them up).

- Monsters do not have inventories. Stolen and picked up items are gone for good.

- Monster doesn't necessarily drop item/gold right under it. It might appear up to two grids away from it.

- Detect door/stairs detects only hidden doors, not doors that are not hidden (stairs it does show always).

[Derakon]

I remember destroying items in Moria by making a radius-2 pile of stuff in the corner of a room, then throwing the unwanted items into that corner. I'd guess the same trick works in Angband, not that there's really any need...

[fizzix]

Having never played anything before 3.0.6 I'm amazed with how many of the differences I knew just from reading old reports/strategy guide/legacy code. I'd like to just mention a few that I think should be reconsidered, or are being reconsidered.

looking works only for things that you actually see.

I sort of like this. I think you should be able to 'look' and get recall, but maybe you shouldn't be able to tell health and fear/confusion/sleep. Perhaps this should be a difference between detection and ESP. ESP could tell you those things, but detection may not?

There are plain junk items laying around (skeletons mainly).

I've wanted to add junk items that indicate what monsters may be around. Like some broken armor that could have been discarded by orcs. Animal bones when trolls are around. Burnt items when fire breathing monsters are nearby. A lot of people don't like junk though, and wanted me to produce the same effects with new terrain. I failed at that though...

you need to pick up gold just like any other item.

I just want to point out that I think there's a broken mechanic in that if you are standing on gold you can't pick it up with waiting. I think you should.

You can't 'I'dentify anything so you can't tell item properties by looking at it. I'm guessing Artifact abilities are left to feeling alone.

Eventually you won't be able to identify anything. It'll all be ID be use. Or at least that's where we are headed. Perhaps auto-id or mass-id after a certain level.

Nothing with charges stack (even wands with same charges).

Inventory management is probably the number 1 gameplay change that has made things easier. The quiver is one thing, but people tend to forget how different it is that you can carry around 4 wands of TO.

Interestingly, the effects of non-stacking wands can still be seen through legacy in 3.3.0. Rods are much deeper and cost 4-5 times more than wands do, despite all the attack rods being significantly less useful. If wands don't stack, all the sudden rods justify their depth and price.

I think inventory management can be a huge area of improvement in the current game.

Items left in non-lite area disappear from map when you walk away from them (so you can't see if something picks them up).

I think the solution to this is not to have items disappear, but not to allow the player to be aware when something gets picked up (or a door crashes open). You should hear it, but you shouldn't know which door it was. This is considered a long-standing bug I believe.

Monsters do not have inventories. Stolen and picked up items are gone for good.

I wouldn't mind some stolen items being gone for good, scrolls, potions, food for example. Even wands and staves could be gone for good or returned drained. Armor, weapons, and books disappearing doesn't make sense though.

Alternatively, monster inventory could be destroyable through elemental attacks, just like the player's inventory.

[Timo Pietilä]

Having never played anything before 3.0.6 I'm amazed with how many of the differences I knew just from reading old reports/strategy guide/legacy code. I'd like to just mention a few that I think should be reconsidered, or are being reconsidered.

Just to note that I'm not posting this to tell what needs to be done, I'm just posting experiences from the game.

One thing I noticed just second ago is that inventory ends at letter 'v' not 'w', so you have one letter less space in already very small inventory.

Eventually you won't be able to identify anything. It'll all be ID be use. Or at least that's where we are headed. Perhaps auto-id or mass-id after a certain level.

'I'dentify as in look what the item is. Not ID by spell or object. You can't tell what the item does, so if the item is something you don't recognize from description (artifact, ego with multiple features) you can't tell what it does. I think only means in the F-K to know entire capabilities of the currently used items are potions of self knowledge (haven't yet found any *ID* scrolls, don't remember if they even exist). Inscriptions to write down that knowledge gained by those potions.

Current ID system is much more complete and easy, in F-K you need to go with the feeling, not with the numbers.

[Derakon]

*ID* exists in frog-knows, but like Self Knowledge, it only shows the information for as long as you have the "page" open; once you dismiss it, you have to read another *ID* to get it back.

Self Knowledge can be used as an ad-hoc *ID* -- strip off everything but the item in question, quaff the potion, and subtract your intrinsic abilities from what the potion tells you.

[Timo Pietilä]

*ID* exists in frog-knows, but like Self Knowledge, it only shows the information for as long as you have the "page" open; once you dismiss it, you have to read another *ID* to get it back.

Self Knowledge can be used as an ad-hoc *ID* -- strip off everything but the item in question, quaff the potion, and subtract your intrinsic abilities from what the potion tells you.

My memories about F-K are a bit vague, but IIRC those self-knowledge potions are a lot more common than *ID* scrolls. If my memory serves me properly they are the main source of *ID* in the game, not the actual scrolls, even that *ID* is more complete in case you have something covered by race/class.

One thing learned in recent short gaming: OoD doesn't destroy cursed items in F-K. Things maintain {cursed} even after casting remove curse, but you can remove them. Not sure what that means with Calris if I find it. Is that a bug that inscription doesn't go away, or is the item really still cursed.

[Magnate]

My memories about F-K are a bit vague, but IIRC those self-knowledge potions are a lot more common than *ID* scrolls. If my memory serves me properly they are the main source of *ID* in the game, not the actual scrolls, even that *ID* is more complete in case you have something covered by race/class.

One thing learned in recent short gaming: OoD doesn't destroy cursed items in F-K. Things maintain {cursed} even after casting remove curse, but you can remove them. Not sure what that means with Calris if I find it. Is that a bug that inscription doesn't go away, or is the item really still cursed.

I think it just means cursed as in still "bad", not sticky.

You are right that SK potions were much more common that *ID*. We did away with SK in 3.1.1, but I'm not sure when the 'I'nspect command came in - well before that, I think.

Fizzix has already picked up the two areas where the devteam definitely wants to make changes back towards FK: map updates outside LOS, and not being able to 'l'ook at things outside LOS. To avoid note-taking, an object you saw ought to stay on the screen after you move out of LOS - but if something picks it up or tramples it while it's outside your LOS, you should not see it disappear until you go back and get that grid in LOS. This is actually really difficult with the current code, so is unlikely to happen any time soon, but it's definitely on the list. Not being able to 'l'ook outside LOS is trivial, and should definitely be in a dev version for testing soon.

The other three things fizzix mentioned I disagree with. Junk items were removed for good reasons, and they shouldn't come back (though this does not stop us having more flavourful terrain or other descriptive mechanisms). Stolen items disappearing is a complete torpedo to suspension of disbelief (though I could see the logic of a chance of this, or reduced charges, if the monster leaves LOS between picking it up/stealing it and being killed - but IMO this would be infuriating to most ppl). I agree that lots of things have made inventory management easier and that's a big reason for the game overall getting easier, but IMO there are better ways of redressing the balance than making things not stack. I guess this comes down to the old "99 suits of armour" argument. My suggestion would be to make wands and staves much heavier, so that the real value of stacks of rods is their lower weight. Currently wands are 1lb, staves are 5lb and rods are 1.5lb. I'd put wands up to 4lb and staves up to 8lb and see how it played.

Sangband prevents staves stacking, but also allows them to take two fire or acid baths before being destroyed ("damaged" and "badly damaged"). This is another possibility.

[Timo Pietilä]

The other three things fizzix mentioned I disagree with. Junk items were removed for good reasons, and they shouldn't come back

I'm not sure "good reasons" is fair case, junk items were flavor in game, problem with junk was not actual junk items but the fact that majority of items that were supposed to be good were junk in practice. In F-K junk skeletons are 's' which means you can't distinguish "living" skeletons from items before you see them. Also filthy rag of elvenkind still beats any non-ego basic armor, and Rusty Plate mail doesn't rust any further, so if you enchant it up it doesn't get corroded by acid.

Flavor items that can't be squelched are not a bad idea. Broken sticks, shards of pottery and skulls lying around creates atmosphere. You don't need to squelch them because you can immediately see that they are just junk. You could make them invisible in item pickup screens or use them as mimic disguises. Or give them all some minor damage dice so that if you throw them you can wake up monsters or even kill small ones.

[Magnate]

I'm not sure "good reasons" is fair case, junk items were flavor in game, problem with junk was not actual junk items but the fact that majority of items that were supposed to be good were junk in practice. In F-K junk skeletons are 's' which means you can't distinguish "living" skeletons from items before you see them. Also filthy rag of elvenkind still beats any non-ego basic armor, and Rusty Plate mail doesn't rust any further, so if you enchant it up it doesn't get corroded by acid.

Flavor items that can't be squelched are not a bad idea. Broken sticks, shards of pottery and skulls lying around creates atmosphere. You don't need to squelch them because you can immediately see that they are just junk. You could make them invisible in item pickup screens or use them as mimic disguises. Or give them all some minor damage dice so that if you throw them you can wake up monsters or even kill small ones.

Well, I know at least one of the current devteam agrees with you, so they might come back. I wasn't part of it when the decision to remove them was made (3.0.x IIRC), but ISTR exactly this debate playing out exhaustively at the time, and a large majority in favour of removing them. There are ways to add flavour that don't interfere with gameplay, and junk items weren't one of them.

That said, I *think* they were removed before the squelch code was added. Now that they can be squelched, the arguments against them are somewhat weaker.

I don't feel strongly either way - I just wanted to let people know that this isn't a new debate, and it wasn't particularly evenly contested last time round.

[d_m]

Flavor items that can't be squelched are not a bad idea. Broken sticks, shards of pottery and skulls lying around creates atmosphere. You don't need to squelch them because you can immediately see that they are just junk. You could make them invisible in item pickup screens or use them as mimic disguises. Or give them all some minor damage dice so that if you throw them you can wake up monsters or even kill small ones.

So, I am someone who really misses broken swords (in particular the artifact Narsil). These aren't technically junk but are similar.

I do miss junk items. Before squelch became popular/common/easy I was ambivalent about them. On the one hand they are definitely clutter and can be annoying. On the other they do add flavor, and a fun feel. Now that squelch is accepted and works well I don't see a good reason not to put them back in. In fact the junk of the "TMJ problem" is totally different than actual junk items.

The only kind of junk I'd be reluctant to permit back in is junk which can't be safely squelched without negative consequences. For instance, junk that 99% of the time does nothing but is occasionally useful. But AFAIK shards of pottery, bones, etc. don't qualify and could easily be squelched.

[Timo Pietilä]

That said, I *think* they were removed before the squelch code was added. Now that they can be squelched, the arguments against them are somewhat weaker.

That is what I think too. At that point any removal of junk was improvement, even if it did mean getting rid of atmosphere creating items. People were ready to remove iron spikes too IIRC even that they do have some limited use.

[Max Stats]

One thing I noticed just second ago is that inventory ends at letter 'v' not 'w', so you have one letter less space in already very small inventory.

IIRC, the inventory was expanded by one slot when the secondary weapon slot was eliminated. Shortly after macros and @ inscriptions were introduced, the "X" command was eliminated as an actual command and instead made into a "standard" macro that was automatically loaded and set to 'w0'. They reasoned that you could still use the extra slot as a secondary weapon if you wanted, but you could also use it as just an extra item.

[Timo Pietilä]

IIRC, the inventory was expanded by one slot when the secondary weapon slot was eliminated.

I can't remember time where you couldn't have two weapons in equipment list, currently you have melee and missile weapons both equipped at the same time, in Frog-knows that is "spare weapon" -slot which can be any weapon.

Was there such a time when that slot didn't exist? If there was I have missed that one completely.