Experiences with Frog-knows

[buzzkill]

But nobody will ID stuff by use if there's a chance of instadeath, so we have to ensure that beasties summoned by unID'd scroll, staff or polymorph will not get the first move.

Ah, so it's only un-ID'd items that your looking to safeguard. OK, I get it now. I still think you're being too protective of the player, but I get it.

Let me throw this at you. Players will ID stuff by use, even if it's risky, because there's an incentive/reward to do so (speedier gameplay, excitement, less GP spent on ID). It's always been this way. I'd say that you're removing most of if not all the risk and leaving only the reward, making the decision a no-brainer. I thought you wanted less of that.

I think that if we were to change the quote so that the word chance read reasonable chance then we'd be in agreement.

[fizzix]

We only need to ensure the first move to encourage ID-by-use. Once an item is ID'd, you deserve everything you get. Summoning traps don't need to guarantee @ the first move either, otherwise there'd be little point to them. But nobody will ID stuff by use if there's a chance of instadeath, so we have to ensure that beasties summoned by unID'd scroll, staff or polymorph will not get the first move.

When I read unID'd scrolls, I do not fear summoning. I fear curse weapon/armor. I think that's a much bigger impediment to encouraging ID-by-use than summoning. I've read summoning scrolls many times and have yet to be insta-killed by them. The odds are very low.

edit: If anyone that's not me wants to actually quantify these odds...

[Magnate]

When I read unID'd scrolls, I do not fear summoning. I fear curse weapon/armor. I think that's a much bigger impediment to encouraging ID-by-use than summoning. I've read summoning scrolls many times and have yet to be insta-killed by them. The odds are very low.

Well they're high enough to have killed buzzkill and me several times. Buy you make a good point that curse armour is pretty brutal - nobody bothers to strip naked before reading a new scroll. IMO it should only remove a single flag ... but ISTR that's heresy.

@buzzkill: for normal play I agree with you - a very small but nonzero chance of instadeath adds to the excitement - this is why I agree with people like Timo/d_m who want more OOD monsters. So what if once in a hundred games you get instakilled by an OOD critter - that's pretty cool!

But for ID-by-use I think the opposite holds. I think most players (who are neither newbies nor veterans) don't do it much, because the rewards aren't that great and the risks from stuff like Summon Undead and Curse Armor are pretty high. And ID-by-use is one thing I *do* want to turn into a no-brainer: the ultimate aim is to remove magical ID completely. But maybe your view of ID-by-use is more accurate than mine, and most people are quite comfortable with the odd instadeath. Could be time for a poll ;-)

[Timo Pietilä]

Some differences this far:

Priest pointy penalty doesn't work in same way. I seem to be able to happily use any weapon as long it has positive enchantments. That might be a bug, but I'm not sure because it seems to be the case with any weapon (currently using katana of animal slaying, some orc dropped RoDam +6).

There is level feeling only if it isn't boring level. For a long time I thought that there are no level feelings at all, but there is if the level is not boring. Unfortunately there is no command to repeat that feeling, so you need to remember it somehow if you save game when you are in the dungeon. I miss macros and alter grid command. I find myself walking into traps because I try to "alter" it instead of "D"isarm it.

There is targetting in 1.31 (the very first frog-knows doesn't have even that), but you need to target first, shoot after, not the other way around.

You can't use items directly from floor or ID item that you have not picked up, which is annoying when your inventory is full. You also can't drop item standing on item, which makes this even more annoying.

Create food creates food in floor, no direct satisfy hunger in here. Created food also seems to be less nutrient than food rations.

Stunning causes confusion (your status is stunned, but your movements act like confused), which makes stunning worse than it is in modern vanilla. I didn't try casting spell while stunned, it might still be possible.

Enchant weapon scrolls (all of them) enchants your currently wielded weapon. It doesn't give choice which item to enchant.

[Magnate]

Create food creates food in floor, no direct satisfy hunger in here. Created food also seems to be less nutrient than food rations.

Is that the "pint of fine grade mush"? ISTR Moria had those - they have negligible sell value so you can't abuse them.

[Derakon]

I definitely remember laying a line of mush down and then hoovering it back up whenever I got hungry. Ahh, memories.

[Magnate]

I definitely remember laying a line of mush down and then hoovering it back up whenever I got hungry. Ahh, memories.

And back in those days, "hoovering a line" had no connotations at all ...

[UglySquirrell]

And back in those days, "hoovering a line" had no connotations at all ...

Lol, been enjoying youre thread, I decided to give it a try(FK, not Hoovering). Having fun so far, level 7 helf rogue. The dungeon is a lot more creepy with radius 1 light. Found the phial but no different from torch. I like how finding a wand or staff is actually very useful, buying them is just too much gold. Can see actually buying recharge scrolls for my wand of stinking cloud.

[Timo Pietilä]

The dungeon is a lot more creepy with radius 1 light. Found the phial but no different from torch. I like how finding a wand or staff is actually very useful, buying them is just too much gold. Can see actually buying recharge scrolls for my wand of stinking cloud.

This is something that F-K has that has been lost in years of development. I'm not quite sure how, but you are actually buying scrolls of recharge to charge something, like wand of light (can kill orcs, lite up the corridor ahead of you).

Bigger light radius is one thing in current vanilla that, even that it is convenient, is not so good thing for game excitement. That radius one light makes game considerably more tough. IMO torches at least should be reverted back to radius one (unless you find torch of brightness).

[UglySquirrell]

I agree with the light radius its pretty exciting not seeing a monster until youre right beside it. Another thing I'm noticing is packs of creatures are a lot more deadly, my level 7 rogue with 75 hp has almost been killed by packs of cave spiders twice. Had to teleport once and use 3 cure critical wounds the second time. They move so quickly that you don't get the chance to even close a door.

[UglySquirrell]

Hmm I must be playing a different version it says 2.4.Frog-knows but I'm getting level feelings and can target after selecting arrows/wand well not really target but aim or fire in a given direction. Maybe this versions after a patch.

[Timo Pietilä]

Hmm I must be playing a different version it says 2.4.Frog-knows but I'm getting level feelings and can target after selecting arrows/wand well not really target but aim or fire in a given direction. Maybe this versions after a patch.

Can you target first using '*', then shoot?

I'm also getting level feelings but not always. This is PC-version 1.31, which is basically Frog-knows with aiming and requirement of having spellbook to gain spells for priests and paladins (I'm assuming that this was not the case for very first Frog-Knows).

[UglySquirrell]

Can you target first using '*', then shoot?

I'm also getting level feelings but not always. This is PC-version 1.31, which is basically Frog-knows with aiming and requirement of having spellbook to gain spells for priests and paladins (I'm assuming that this was not the case for very first Frog-Knows).

Oh yeah that works, thank you. I thought I wouldn't like having to switch between ranged and melee weapons but i find I'm liking it more than having the bow always equipped. Does anyone remember the don't attack inscription for the bow? I've found myself beating monsters over the head with it more than a few times ×-)

[UglySquirrell]

If you see a potion of Death, grab it I just sold one for 11,209 gold.

[Narvius]

Not at the moment, no. The best we can do is set the energy of all summonees to 0, but they might still move first.

I just thought of something. Reject all summonees with speed > player speed upon un-id'ed use.