[3.05] YACD - decision on what to keep

[NoSurrender]

I am varying the gauntlets, but my penalty of 70% for lacking regeneration (which I admit is probably excessive) keeps Fingolfin from being competitive. If I added an Amulet of Regeneration to the mix it would show up in a few top combinations. I had a Flail of Gondolin with regeneration but I sold it a few levels back.

I forgot to mention that I'm now swapping Fingolfin and Paurhach. Fingolfin for major combat and Paurhach at all other times. Of course spreadsheet doesn't consider swaps (yet).

[Timo Pietilä]

Are you talking about the line with Hurin? The resistance score is 0.53 vs 0.93-0.94 for the others. A lack of resistance to shards is the cause of that. I lost one of my more recent games at slightly deeper level by double shards breath from Great Wyrms of Law.

Double-breath of any of the major high elements can cause something like 800-900 points of damage regardless of resistance. You should never ever get into position where that can happen.

[Magnate]

Double-breath of any of the major high elements can cause something like 800-900 points of damage regardless of resistance. You should never ever get into position where that can happen.

2 x (1600 / 3) = 1066, if you are talking about max damage (e.g. great wyrms). That's more than most non-warriors will ever have, so it's well worth avoiding.

[Timo Pietilä]

2 x (1600 / 3) = 1066, if you are talking about max damage (e.g. great wyrms). That's more than most non-warriors will ever have, so it's well worth avoiding.

Getting that requires monster with over 4800 HP, so Great Wyrms can't actually do that (from non-uniques Greater Balrogs and GWoMC gets close, they have 4400 average HP). I think that is partially why people get surprised by how much damage for example Tarrasque can do with fire and cold.

However something relatively common like Gelugon can do 684 (average) with single-resisted double-cold and 857 with resisted double-shard with worst case scenario. Dracolichs can do over 800 points even with both breaths do get only second worst case scenario resist (or one with worst and second with average) with nether. Or combination of single-resisted cold and worst case nether.

Double-attacks are a bad bad thing, resisted or not. Double Grand Master Mystic melee can lead to death by KO against everyone. Double Black Reaver manastorms make 800 points of damage with no defense against it.

[NoSurrender]

Double-breath of any of the major high elements can cause something like 800-900 points of damage regardless of resistance. You should never ever get into position where that can happen.

Whoa! I thought damage was capped and then resistances apply after. So for example Shards is capped at 500 damage. With resistance to Shards damage is max 167. To my mind that is a big difference.

For major high element breathers (or anyone who can summon them), I never go into battle without double resistance as a Rogue. Those are capped at 1600 damage. With double resistance, you divide by 9 and get 178 max. Again a big difference.

[EpicMan]

Whoa! I thought damage was capped and then resistances apply after. So for example Shards is capped at 500 damage. With resistance to Shards damage is max 167. To my mind that is a big difference.

For major high element breathers (or anyone who can summon them), I never go into battle without double resistance as a Rogue. Those are capped at 1600 damage. With double resistance, you divide by 9 and get 178 max. Again a big difference.

Unfortunately high element resists provide very weak damage resistance, I think on the order of reducing damage to between 1/2 and 6/7 of original, so if shards max is 500 you could still take up to 429 damage from a breath, or 858 from a double-breath in the worst case.

[Derakon]

The reduction depends on the element. And yes, some of them provide random reduction. For example, nether resistance is 6 / (6 + d6), or anywhere from 6/ths normal damage to 1/2 normal damage. Most elements, including shards, have the same potential, but sound is 5 / (6 + d6), light and dark are 4 / (6 + d6), and of course the basic 4 + poison have constant reduction.

Damage caps are also different:

nether: 550
light, dark, nexus: 400
sound, chaos, disenchantment, shards: 500
time, hellfire: 150
inertia, gravity, force: 200
raw magic: 1600

So a resisted double shards breath could deal up to 2 * int(500 * 6 / 7) = 856 damage in the worst case.

I find it interesting that hellfire has such a low damage cap.

[NoSurrender]

The reduction depends on the element. And yes, some of them provide random reduction. For example, nether resistance is 6 / (6 + d6), or anywhere from 6/ths normal damage to 1/2 normal damage. Most elements, including shards, have the same potential, but sound is 5 / (6 + d6), light and dark are 4 / (6 + d6), and of course the basic 4 + poison have constant reduction.

Damage caps are also different:

nether: 550
light, dark, nexus: 400
sound, chaos, disenchantment, shards: 500
time, hellfire: 150
inertia, gravity, force: 200
raw magic: 1600

So a resisted double shards breath could deal up to 2 * int(500 * 6 / 7) = 856 damage in the worst case.

I find it interesting that hellfire has such a low damage cap.

Wow! Thanks to all of you for educating me. Somehow I got the 1/3 thing in my head and thought it applied to everything. I will really have to rethink my resistance utility functions. And modify my play style.

Learning this on a message board is a lot more pleasant than learning by having my @ bite the big one.

[NoSurrender]

Given my misunderstanding regarding high resists, I've decided to have a chance of winning I will have to change my style of play. I changed my resistance utilities accordingly.

New resistance penalties in the spreadsheet for 59th level are:

Acid = 88%
Elec = 92%
Fire = 96.4%
Cold = 94.25%
Pois = 95.9%
Fear = complicated but approx 8%
Lite = 40%
Dark = 55%

I'll illuminate how No BlindR, ConfR penalties work since they are complicated but particularly important:

Blind = if no LiteR 25% + if no DarkR 25% + 30% * (1-prob of sav. throw fail) + 20% * (prob of monster hitting)

Confusion = 58% + 19.5% * (1-prob of sav. throw fail) + 22.5% * (prob of monster hitting)

Sound = 25%
Shard = 30%
Nexus = 20% (because it is still dang annoying)
Nether = 30%
Chaos = 20%
Disen = 64% + 36% * (prob of monster hitting)

and lastly I changed the penalty for no regen to 40%.

My new top 50 combinations (looks like Timo was right):

Utilites											Equipment											
Total	Melee	Ranged	Resist	Speed	Armor	HP  Sav. Throw  SP  Stealth  Infr. Vis.	M. Weapon	R Weapon	Ring 1	Ring 2	Amulet	Light Source	Armor	Cloak	Shield	Headgear	Gloves	Boots
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
65.33	861.95	691.74	0.698	3.6	0.651	900	120	189	12	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
65.27	814.06	770.50	0.698	3.4	0.651	900	120	189	12	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
64.27	849.94	639.97	0.708	3.3	0.719	900	120	180	13	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.95	780.27	616.03	0.698	3.2	0.651	975	120	207	13	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.93	642.69	689.12	0.698	3.6	0.651	975	120	189	12	7	Barukkheled	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.87	606.99	767.61	0.698	3.4	0.651	975	120	189	12	7	Barukkheled	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.69	731.50	681.12	0.698	3	0.651	975	120	207	13	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.58	602.14	815.83	0.698	3.6	0.651	900	120	189	12	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.37	1021.53	704.38	0.421	3.6	0.674	900	120	253	12	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
63.31	964.78	784.46	0.421	3.4	0.674	900	120	253	12	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
63.29	778.73	689.12	0.698	3.6	0.651	800	120	258	12	7	Olorin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.23	735.46	767.61	0.698	3.4	0.651	800	120	258	12	7	Olorin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.19	772.67	686.10	0.708	3	0.719	900	120	180	13	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.18	667.96	678.76	0.705	3.5	0.699	900	120	174	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.17	667.96	678.76	0.708	3.5	0.719	900	120	180	13	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.16	573.52	600.10	0.925	3.1	0.625	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.10	667.96	678.76	0.705	3.5	0.699	900	120	174	15	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.10	755.89	596.78	0.698	3.1	0.651	975	120	207	13	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.09	657.36	820.35	0.708	3.6	0.719	800	120	180	13	7	Aglarang	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.08	629.79	754.71	0.705	3.3	0.699	900	120	174	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.07	646.57	637.64	0.708	3.3	0.719	975	120	180	13	7	Barukkheled	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.07	629.79	754.71	0.708	3.3	0.719	900	120	180	13	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.05	817.67	635.28	0.695	3.3	0.631	900	120	183	12	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Arvedui	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
63.00	629.79	754.71	0.705	3.3	0.699	900	120	174	15	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.87	765.91	710.95	0.698	3.7	0.651	800	120	189	12	7	Eorlingas	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.86	724.51	793.16	0.698	3.5	0.651	800	120	189	12	7	Eorlingas	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.85	536.52	662.04	0.925	2.9	0.625	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.85	618.86	710.95	0.698	3.7	0.651	900	120	189	12	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.85	768.11	703.82	0.695	3.1	0.631	900	120	183	12	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Arvedui	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.81	812.71	830.61	0.421	3.6	0.674	900	120	253	12	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
62.79	707.12	658.42	0.698	2.9	0.651	975	120	207	13	7	Hurin	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.71	537.43	597.89	0.934	3.1	0.671	975	120	179	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.70	769.89	562.40	0.708	2.9	0.719	975	120	198	14	7	Hurin	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.66	598.01	619.45	0.938	3.2	0.691	900	120	185	12	5	Aglarang	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.61	588.40	654.54	0.695	3.4	0.631	975	120	207	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.54	667.96	678.76	0.698	3.5	0.654	900	120	174	13	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Thorongil	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.52	588.40	654.54	0.698	3.4	0.651	975	120	207	13	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.46	553.79	726.53	0.695	3.2	0.631	975	120	207	16	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.44	629.79	754.71	0.698	3.3	0.654	900	120	174	13	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Thorongil	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.44	707.37	524.56	0.938	2.7	0.691	975	120	185	12	5	Hurin	Bard	Speed +5	Barahir	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Isildur	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.41	797.11	701.91	0.421	3.6	0.674	975	120	253	12	7	Barukkheled	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
62.37	553.79	726.53	0.698	3.2	0.651	975	120	207	13	7	Sting	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.37	675.62	714.93	0.708	3.7	0.719	800	120	180	13	7	Aglarang	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.37	593.21	791.68	0.698	3.5	0.651	850	120	207	13	7	Aglarang	HXbow XS	Speed +5	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.36	752.83	781.73	0.421	3.4	0.674	975	120	253	12	7	Barukkheled	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Fingolfin	Dal-i-thalion
62.35	772.99	637.64	0.708	3.3	0.719	800	120	249	13	7	Olorin	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Celeborn	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.35	654.94	693.04	0.558	3.6	0.651	975	120	230	11	5	Aglarang	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	WpnMstry +2	Elendil	Caspanion	Aman Shard	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.35	573.66	689.12	0.930	3.6	0.651	800	120	189	12	7	Osondir	Bard	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.31	611.41	835.34	0.698	3.7	0.651	800	120	189	12	7	Aglarang	HXbow XS	Speed +4	Speed +5	Trickery +2	Elendil	Thalkettoth	Aman Disen	Celegorm	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion
62.30	555.02	580.74	0.925	3	0.625	975	120	197	16	7	Sting	Bard	Speed +4	Barahir	Trickery +2	Elendil	Rohirrim	Aman Disen	Elfkind Shard	Dor-lomin	Paurhach	Dal-i-thalion

[Timo Pietilä]

I find it interesting that hellfire has such a low damage cap.

"Hellfire" is probably same as plasma. There is no resistance against it so I think that is the reason why it has such a low damage cap. No resistance = low damage cap (nothing breathes mana, and that is not defined in 3.3 anymore).

@NoSurrender Note that damage caps apply only to breaths, spells are not restricted in same way, so darkness storm from Sauron can cause over 400 points of damage.

I was sure Vecna could do darkness storm as well, but apparently it can't. Also Cerberus is now gone, so very deep darkness stormers are gone, Ungoliant is second deepest, but that's not that deep. IMO we should give all Balrogs BA_DARK based on their description in LoTR and Silmarillion. That would make them a bit more scary and restore the deep darkness stormer in the group.

[Magnate]

I was sure Vecna could do darkness storm as well, but apparently it can't. Also Cerberus is now gone, so very deep darkness stormers are gone, Ungoliant is second deepest, but that's not that deep. IMO we should give all Balrogs BA_DARK based on their description in LoTR and Silmarillion. That would make them a bit more scary and restore the deep darkness stormer in the group.

+1. I like this idea.

[NoSurrender]

@NoSurrender Note that damage caps apply only to breaths, spells are not restricted in same way, so darkness storm from Sauron can cause over 400 points of damage.

I was sure Vecna could do darkness storm as well, but apparently it can't. Also Cerberus is now gone, so very deep darkness stormers are gone, Ungoliant is second deepest, but that's not that deep. IMO we should give all Balrogs BA_DARK based on their description in LoTR and Silmarillion. That would make them a bit more scary and restore the deep darkness stormer in the group.

Thanks for the tip. I don't know about more recent versions, but in 3.05 monsters with darkness storm are:

Lvl 65: The Mouth of Sauron
Lvl 67: Beholder Hive Mother
Lvl 68: Tselakus, the Dreadlord
Lvl 73: Omarax, the Eye Tyrant
Lvl 75: Ungoliant, the Unlight
Lvl 99: Sauron of course

[Magnate]

Thanks for the tip. I don't know about more recent versions, but in 3.05 monsters with darkness storm are:

Lvl 65: The Mouth of Sauron
Lvl 67: Beholder Hive Mother
Lvl 68: Tselakus, the Dreadlord
Lvl 73: Omarax, the Eye Tyrant
Lvl 75: Ungoliant, the Unlight
Lvl 99: Sauron of course

That's interesting - I've lost several characters to the Mouth, I think because I just have a mental block about remembering that he's extremely dangerous. I've hardly ever met Omarax, and usually prepare very carefully for Tselakus, Ungoliant and Sauron, so don't usually have problems there. The hive mother is a JLE addition, I think, and I've not bothered to fight many of those.