gain one, lose one stat potions

[bulian]

I've recently modified how I use these potions with effective results.

I realized at some point that gains above 18 are somewhat random and typically > "10". So, if Con is at 17 and the player drinks 2 !Toughness, the first potion will bring him to 18 and the second potion may bring him somewhere between 18/10 and 18/30. Let's say the first brings the player to 18/25. Drinking another !Toughness again results in a random gain.

If the player then drinks another +1-1 potion and CON is reduced, CON only drops by "10" to 18/15. Were CON at 17, it would drop to 16. So getting a character stat above 18 is good and results in semi +3-1 type behavior. Whether this is desired or not is beyond me.

Anyway, most classes care about a few stats; the simplest is warriors who care about STR/DEX/CON. Drinking brawn and losing DEX can be a wash. On the other hand if both STR and DEX are 16, drinking 3 brawn in a row followed by 3-4 nimbleness, there is a reasonable probability that both STR and DEX end up at or above 18. So, I've started waiting until I have enough potions to get all important stats > 18 and then drinking all the +1-1 potions at once. It's worked quite nicely the few times I've tried it. Should one stat be dominant (*cough cough* strength) I'll drink !brawn as I find them unless one stat gets too low.

[fizzix]

I realized at some point that gains above 18 are somewhat random and typically > "10". So, if Con is at 17 and the player drinks 2 !Toughness, the first potion will bring him to 18 and the second potion may bring him somewhere between 18/10 and 18/30. Let's say the first brings the player to 18/25. Drinking another !Toughness again results in a random gain.

This is a known issue. It can be mitigate somewhat by removing the random gain and replacing it with +10 after 18. There's still some problems as certain values (say 18/50 dex) are more useful than others. The random gain after 18 was put in to add some flavor. However, I'm not so certain it's worth it.

[UglySquirrell]

I really like the random gain at 18. + usually I try and get my 2 main stats just above 18 then wait for stat potions. Makes the uninteresting, peaceful first 20 levels a little more interesting.

[UglySquirrell]

Actually, I think it would be fun if unidentified regular stat potions, gave you a random boost 1-3 points. One of the variants I used to play did this. Of course they had potions of death, and explosions too

[Timo Pietilä]

This is a known issue. It can be mitigate somewhat by removing the random gain and replacing it with +10 after 18.

It actually was like that for a while. People didn't like it, and it got reversed to what it was originally. I think main reason for that was to speed up the stat-gaining process. That random gain does have quite big impact on how many potions you really need to get to near-maxed stats.

[fizzix]

It actually was like that for a while. People didn't like it, and it got reversed to what it was originally. I think main reason for that was to speed up the stat-gaining process. That random gain does have quite big impact on how many potions you really need to get to near-maxed stats.

I'd rather have some mechanic in that you gain +2 points up to 18/20 or 18/30 and then +10 after that. I dunno. It annoys me, but only slightly.

[UglySquirrell]

I'd rather have some mechanic in that you gain +2 points up to 18/20 or 18/30 and then +10 after that. I dunno. It annoys me, but only slightly.

This would make more sense, I think. Other than carrying cappacity, stat raising before 18+ is reaallly boring and you see almost no gain. Hengband had a pretty cool system, at level 2 and then fixed levels after, you would get a random stat gain, I'm pretty sure it was 1or 2 points. It also allowed you to choose Wich stat to raise every 10 levels or so. I always found the games played a lot more smoothly, never had to slow down at stat gain depth. And leveling up was more rewarding early on.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'd rather have some mechanic in that you gain +2 points up to 18/20 or 18/30 and then +10 after that. I dunno. It annoys me, but only slightly.

I don't have problem with random gain after 18, I have more problem it not being the case before it. IMO we should move to 3-40 (or maybe even 0-40) stat-system, and include fractional stats even before 18. (18 + 22 from "fractions" = 40).

Also time attacks at least used to have huge impact on stats before 18 but not after (bug, IMO).

[d_m]

I don't have problem with random gain after 18, I have more problem it not being the case before it. IMO we should move to 3-40 (or maybe even 0-40) stat-system, and include fractional stats even before 18. (18 + 22 from "fractions" = 40).

Also time attacks at least used to have huge impact on stats before 18 but not after (bug, IMO).

I would also like to linearize the stats, although I can't say I have thought through all the implications carefully. I think most of the devs feel this way.

[Narvius]

Which begs the questions: Why are they the way the are right now?
Probably historical reasons, but still, it's interesting to know why exactly.

[Innertällmo]

In old Moria you only got 1 point for each potion after 18/95 and 1-2 after 18/90 if I recall right. Ten potions could be needed to go from 18/90 to 18/100. This could be helped by wearing an amulet of DOOM while drinking the stat gain pots.
Amulet of DOOM also rounded the figures in your favor in the range 18/01-18/49 - using the amulet with stat 18/01, changed it to 18/10 when the amulet was removed.

[Timo Pietilä]

Which begs the questions: Why are they the way the are right now?
Probably historical reasons, but still, it's interesting to know why exactly.

It is a remnant from D&D roleplaying game which used same set of stats. Quite a few things come from there.

[Nick]

Is it just me, or is thread someone describing a way they like to play, and then several people talking about why the system is bad for allowing that?

[fizzix]

I would also like to linearize the stats, although I can't say I have thought through all the implications carefully. I think most of the devs feel this way.

which part? the linearizing part, or the not thinking through part? The last point of CON is worth about 50 HP, there's considerable effort that goes into getting gear that helps your CON get that high. If you linearize stats, it'll probably be worth more like 10-15 HP. I don't think linearizing is the way to go.

However, what I do think is a good idea is having character levels correspond to minimum stats. So something like clevel 50 would be equivalent to 18/170 and to figure out your stat you take MAX(clevel equivalent, actual stat). This would allow players to choose a grind for XP way or a gear finding way, and both would allow either option to progress nicely. These maxes shouldn't kick in until the higher levels.

And Nick, it's just you. I'm pretty sure of it. Yep. Just you.

[Innertällmo]

I've recently modified how I use these potions with effective results.

Anyway, most classes care about a few stats; the simplest is warriors who care about STR/DEX/CON. Drinking brawn and losing DEX can be a wash. On the other hand if both STR and DEX are 16, drinking 3 brawn in a row followed by 3-4 nimbleness, there is a reasonable probability that both STR and DEX end up at or above 18. So, I've started waiting until I have enough potions to get all important stats > 18 and then drinking all the +1-1 potions at once. It's worked quite nicely the few times I've tried it. Should one stat be dominant (*cough cough* strength) I'll drink !brawn as I find them unless one stat gets too low.

Used your strategy with my current character (kobold warrior) with great success: 3x brawn, 6x nimbleness and 2x toughness resulted in doubled damage with my weapon at that stage without any loss in constitution. This was sufficient for a quick dive down to "real" stat gain levels.

The gain one, lose one are of doubtful value one-by-one, but are very good in numbers. Fear stat swap though...