[3.3.0] opinions and comments

[Xaxyx]

I recognize that some players want restoration potions. Hell, they may even come back and that wouldn't bother me much. But they should come back as restoration potions, not by co-opting the stat-swap potions.

It seems only fair, since the stat-swap potions co-opted the restoration potions. My way, we get the best of both worlds. How often do you drink Contemplation potions if you aren't playing a priest? Is it ever worth the risk of losing a strength point? This way, potions that would otherwise be junk cluttering the dungeon floor now serve a much more useful purpose. That, if anything, I would dare say is the direction Angband has been taking over the last few updates.

And yeah, probably we're making too big a deal out of this. I'm more peeved by the apparent communications failure between us than I am about the desire for stat restoration.

No worries. Debating is fun; flame wars are boring.

[Zyphyr]

It seems only fair, since the stat-swap potions co-opted the restoration potions.

That is absolutely untrue. The stat-swaps were introduced long before the removal of the restoration potions.

The one was in no way related to the other.

[Xaxyx]

That is absolutely untrue. The stat-swaps were introduced long before the removal of the restoration potions.

The one was in no way related to the other.

I disagree. Upon the introduction of stat-swap potions, players then had access to three arrays of stat-restoring potions. When next a review was made of the various potions in order to reduce what was seen as chaff, it was the regular restoration potion that got the axe. Would they have been eliminated if stat-swap potions didn't exist? I highly doubt it.

[Timo Pietilä]

I disagree. Upon the introduction of stat-swap potions, players then had access to three arrays of stat-restoring potions. When next a review was made of the various potions in order to reduce what was seen as chaff, it was the regular restoration potion that got the axe. Would they have been eliminated if stat-swap potions didn't exist? I highly doubt it.

I pretty much think they would have. Swap-stat -potions do not help stat restoration much if at all, these two are completely unrelated.

Restore potions removal was a result from restoration scumming removal and sustain importance raise development goals.

[Xaxyx]

I pretty much think they would have. Swap-stat -potions do not help stat restoration much if at all, these two are completely unrelated.

Am I mistaken, then? Does drinking a swap-stat potion not currently restore the stat it's also attempting to raise?

Restore potions removal was a result from restoration scumming removal and sustain importance raise development goals.

And now instead we have Mushroom of Vigor scumming and vampire cooperatives. Heck, a Potion of Restore Life Levels is now the poor man's stat restoration potion. Hardly ideal.

The thing about stat drain is that there's no natural recourse for its recovery. This differs from just about every other malady in the game. Got energy drained? Go fight things and regain the exp. Got poisoned? Sit in a corner. I seem to vaguely recall there's some super-death-bleed that requires magic to cure; but other than that, either resting or adventuring will eventually correct any issue your character has, in addition to using a consumable designed to correct the malady. All, that is, except for stat drain. Stat drain explicitly requires its specific countermeasure. There exists no other redress.

Perhaps that, instead, is the recourse that should be taken. Perhaps drained stats should recover on their own naturally -- over time, as a side effect of experience gain (rather than actual level gain), or via some similar mechanic. Perhaps they'll come back faster if you regenerate. Perhaps they'll come back faster if you eat food (rather than just Vigor shrooms). Whatever the mechanic, at least then stat drain will function similarly to the various other maladies that strike characters: use a consumable, or wait it out.

[Derakon]

Am I mistaken, then? Does drinking a swap-stat potion not currently restore the stat it's also attempting to raise?

It does, yes, but as you noted earlier generally people aren't willing to risk draining a stat they actually want just to restore a stat they don't care much about. Though of course, I'm more willing to chug a potion of Brawn if my STR is drained, STR being a generally useful stat.

And now instead we have Mushroom of Vigor scumming and vampire cooperatives. Heck, a Potion of Restore Life Levels is now the poor man's stat restoration potion. Hardly ideal.

Which is why IMO stats should only be restored on achievement of a new level, thereby patching the vampirism exploit.

And is anyone actually scumming for mushrooms of vigor because one of their stats is currently drained?

The rest of your piece is as far as I can tell basically saying "I miss having relatively easy access to stat restoration", which basically puts you in direct opposition to the reasoning behind the original change. My personal opinion is that the player should learn to deal with being weakened over a timespan that lies somewhere between "tens of turns" and "permanent". It makes stat drain actually threatening in the deeper levels.

[Xaxyx]

It does, yes, but as you noted earlier generally people aren't willing to risk draining a stat they actually want just to restore a stat they don't care much about. Though of course, I'm more willing to chug a potion of Brawn if my STR is drained, STR being a generally useful stat.

Which means in turn that you were granted an additional option for restoring stats you care about. An additional option that you would even be likely to use. Which in turn was the death knell for regular ol' restoration potions, I'd purport.

Which is why IMO stats should only be restored on achievement of a new level, thereby patching the vampirism exploit.

Or we could make stat restoration more intuitive and reliable, thus alleviating the need to exploit it. Wasn't it your argument that the game should follow intuitive patterns based on existing mechanics?

And is anyone actually scumming for mushrooms of vigor because one of their stats is currently drained?

I don't know. Was anyone actually scumming for restoration potions? Would the folks who were doing the former be likely to be doing the latter? I suspect those who fall victim to the Curse of the Experience Potion™ might be sorely tempted to engage in such practices.

The rest of your piece is as far as I can tell basically saying "I miss having relatively easy access to stat restoration", which basically puts you in direct opposition to the reasoning behind the original change.

Actually, I found access to stat restoration was a pretty big pain in the butt to begin with. The changes made access only slightly more irksome, and additionally served to encourage, rather than discourage, exploitation to compensate.

My personal opinion is that the player should learn to deal with being weakened over a timespan that lies somewhere between "tens of turns" and "permanent". It makes stat drain actually threatening in the deeper levels.

Then perhaps it should work more similarly to how experience drain works. Bigger monsters drain more experience, requiring killing more and uglier critters to recover it. Similarly, bigger monsters can inflict longer-lasting stat drain maladies, requiring killing more and uglier critters to recover it. Abstractly, it already works this way, insofar as that if you're deeper, then you're higher level, which means it'll require more experience to gain a level and cure your stats. Binding the rate of restoration directly to the rate of experience gain pretty much closes the exploit loophole, gives characters who are already level 50 a way to fix themselves, and finally introduces a reliable way to ameliorate the only malady in the game that currently can't be addressed without a consumable.

[Timo Pietilä]

Actually, I found access to stat restoration was a pretty big pain in the butt to begin with.

Then don't get your stats drained. That is why sustains exist. Trust me, it was way worse in original angband than it is now. If we get rid of the gain one lose one potions then you would have pretty similar situation.

I would like to have time attack "drain all stats" removed though. Or allow saving throw against that. That one is very hard to avoid (time vortices move at speed +30) in current vanilla. It is still rare, but too common anyway.

Other way to fix this is to change stat-draining a timed effect that wears off after some time. A bit like poison

(BTW, to make poison effect more dangerous have it drain STR and/or CON instead of hurting HP one point each turn. When you recover from poison start the restoring process).

[Xaxyx]

Then don't get your stats drained.

Then remove stat drain from the game. But as long as it's in, then it should be possible to counter it in ways similar to how everything else can be countered. You can wear protection from confusion, cure confusion via a consumable, or wait until confusion wears off. You can wear protection from energy drain (90% anyway), restore lost experience points via a consumable, or kill things until you've regained the lost experience. You can wear protection from stat loss, or restore the lost stats via a consumable. But you cannot wait it out, and you cannot kill to regain the stats, other than via level gain that is both capped (at 50) and exploitable (vampires).

That is why sustains exist. Trust me, it was way worse in original angband than it is now. If we get rid of the gain one lose one potions then you would have pretty similar situation.

I'm sure it is better. I feel it can be made better still. I didn't propose removing the gain/lose stat potions altogether. I proposed enhancing them, making them even more useful, more interesting. How many Potions of Contemplation have you left cluttering the dungeon floor behind you? Wouldn't it be neat to be able to snatch one up the next time some annoying invisible something pops in and drains your wisdom, and safely use it to restore the lost stat?

I would like to have time attack "drain all stats" removed though. Or allow saving throw against that. That one is very hard to avoid (time vortices move at speed +30) in current vanilla. It is still rare, but too common anyway.

I would like time to be an element that can be resisted altogether. Again, inconsistently, we have an effect with no recourse. Nexus can be resisted. Chaos can be resisted. Time cannot. I feel that there's no plausible justification for this omission.

Other way to fix this is to change stat-draining a timed effect that wears off after some time. A bit like poison

Agreed.

(BTW, to make poison effect more dangerous have it drain STR and/or CON instead of hurting HP one point each turn. When you recover from poison start the restoring process).

That's an equally interesting idea.

[Timo Pietilä]

I would like time to be an element that can be resisted altogether. Again, inconsistently, we have an effect with no recourse. Nexus can be resisted. Chaos can be resisted. Time cannot. I feel that there's no plausible justification for this omission.

Except that it is time we are talking about. How do you resist time? There is no protection because it doesn't make any sense to have any. In fact time should make permanent damage, not just drain things. Maybe allow saving throw, but that's all.

[Derakon]

"Enhancing" the stat-swap potions in the manner you describe amounts to making the stat drain aspect of the game less interesting. Monsters with stat drain attacks aren't as much fun to deal with because their attacks can be more easily dealt with.

Remember, "making X more useful" amounts to "making the game easier", unless the reason X is more useful is because the thing it acts against has been made more threatening. And we're trying very hard to not make the game easier right now.

As for the time element, it's far from the only unresistable attack in the game. Gravity, inertia, water, force, ice, mana, etc. are all unresistable. Personally I'm in favor of a game in which even a perfectly kitted-out player has things they have to worry about.

[Xaxyx]

Except that it is time we are talking about. How do you resist time? There is no protection because it doesn't make any sense to have any. In fact time should make permanent damage, not just drain things. Maybe allow saving throw, but that's all.

You didn't just play the Common Sense card, did you? In Angband? Nexus can exchange your 18 strength with your 3 charisma. rNexus prevents this. Yet how can anyone truly resist The Nexus™?! It'll eat your eyes! Booga booga!

rTime resists Time. If that's too brutish, then allow each of the components of Time effects to be resisted by the appropriate protection, much like side effects of other high-level attacks are resisted as appropriate (stun, confusion, etc). If the Time effect would drain experience, and you have Hold Life, then it doesn't, or it's reduced, as usual. If the Time effect would drain stats, and you have sustain on some or all of your stats, then the Time effect is similarly diminished and/or prevented.

[Xaxyx]

"Enhancing" the stat-swap potions in the manner you describe amounts to making the stat drain aspect of the game less interesting. Monsters with stat drain attacks aren't as much fun to deal with because their attacks can be more easily dealt with.

I would find it more interesting, insofar as that those stat-swap potions that I would have otherwise left on the dungeon floor to rot -- or squelch altogether -- are now items that I might consider snagging and sticking in my vault for a while. I'd still be just as loathe to engage with monsters that drain stats, as those consumables are still limited and hard to come by. But at least I'd have the additional option on how to deal with the hardship. Nowadays, my only recourse is to ignore it and stumble along until the next experience level. How is that more interesting than my suggestion?

Remember, "making X more useful" amounts to "making the game easier", unless the reason X is more useful is because the thing it acts against has been made more threatening. And we're trying very hard to not make the game easier right now.

Then increase the frequency and/or efficacy of stat-drain effects accordingly. As it stands now, though, I won't engage with such creatures at all since I have no way at all to ameliorate the damage that they cause me. Whereas, if I had tucked away a potion or three, I might run in there, knowing that I can fix myself up after the fight. Sound familiar? That's precisely the opportunity the Potion of Restore Life Levels provides. And you can buy those from the store.

As for the time element, it's far from the only unresistable attack in the game. Gravity, inertia, water, force, ice, mana, etc. are all unresistable. Personally I'm in favor of a game in which even a perfectly kitted-out player has things they have to worry about.

It similarly irks me that gravity and inertia are irresistible, as that's basically instant death for no particularly good reason for players who walk down a staircase into a dark room with a pack of those critters just out of sight range. The other attacks are largely just angry damage effects, with side effects that are ameliorated by the appropriate resistances. They're also extremely rare, mainly coming from really nasty unique critters in deep dungeon levels that deserve to have really angry attacks. But gravity and inertia are found on common monsters, in pretty high dungeon levels, in gigantic, fast-moving swarms. If these packs must persist in existing in this game -- personally I'd eliminate them entirely -- then at least make it possible to have some tiny crumb of survivability, I would purport. Really, when's the last time you actually fought a pack of gravity or inertia hounds of any size? Heck, when's the last time you even killed one by itself? What's the point of having monsters in the dungeon that no one would ever fight for any reason?

[Derakon]

I fight gravity, inertia, and time hounds all the time. Not when they first start showing up, but once I can kill one before the next comes around (and ideally, kill one before it gets a turn on me), fighting them is not a huge risk -- if they're between me and where I want to go, then it's worth taking them on.

Don't underestimate the value of monsters you don't want to fight. Wandering badasses prevent you from going everywhere you want to go. This is a good thing. Otherwise the player would just be mindlessly pinging between loci of interest without worrying about what's in-between.

[fizzix]

Except that it is time we are talking about. How do you resist time? There is no protection because it doesn't make any sense to have any. In fact time should make permanent damage, not just drain things. Maybe allow saving throw, but that's all.

Interesting. I could get behind Time doing less damage but permanently draining a single stat (or EXP). I would definitely chuck the drain all stats option in this scenario. I like time having really bad side-effects. I don't like that it's also an efficient damager.

I think we need a hound that breathes something irresistable (the elements?) for 100 damage or so. These are insta-death hounds in groups, but they would be handleable one on one. Right now time hounds fill that role, but I'd rather have time be an interesting mechanic without it being so damaging to HP as well.

Anyway, as to some of the points mentioned in the thread. Draining XP to restore stats is a loophole that will probably be closed soon. In fact, If no one else gets to it before me, I'll certainly do it before the next release. Mushrooms of vigor won't be that bad if we introduce drop profiles where you know that to get the mushrooms you just need to find a death mold and kill it.