Artifact Drop from Mim

[Madoka]

I have been away from Angband for a while. The last time I played Angband was 2.7.9v6...then I had a hard drive incident and lost my player. About four years ago I got a Vista laptop and decided to try Angband again, but ran into the blank walls issue. I then played Entroband for a while. About a month ago I got a new Win 7 laptop and decided to try 3.2.0.

I must admit it's been very entertaining. The use-to-ID is something that's new to me and very nice, especially at the beginning of the game. All the negative magical items is a nice touch, as is all the new rings and potions (nimbleness, etc). I was used to reading every scroll at the shallow levels. So on my first trip into the dungeon, on the first scroll I find, I read it and find myself on level 3 courtesy of a Scroll of Deep Descent. That was my intro to the new Angband! But then I find a Black Dragon Scale Mail on the floor of level 20. I don't remember seeing those so soon before.

So, I'm on level 27 and managed to kill Mim, and he drops three items:
The Short Bow of Amras, The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cammithrim', and The Pair of Leather Boots of Wormtongue.

What the hell? Is that supposed to happen? He was uber loaded! I've never gotten more than one artifact from any unique.

[Timo Pietilä]

So, I'm on level 27 and managed to kill Mim, and he drops three items:
The Short Bow of Amras, The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cammithrim', and The Pair of Leather Boots of Wormtongue.

What the hell? Is that supposed to happen? He was uber loaded! I've never gotten more than one artifact from any unique.

That's just luck. Every now and then something very extraordinary happens in angband. I once go two CGV in single level. Didn't know what to do with all the loot I got from them.

[PowerDiver]

I've got to disagree with Timo. I think he must have forgotten 3.0, much less 2.x.

Stuff equivalent to DSM on the floor early is common enough. Artifacts and egos now drop much more often. And many are boosted in power as well. Sure, Mim might have dropped 3 artifacts way back when, but it would not surprise me if that is 100 times as likely now as then.

Playing a dev version of the upcoming 3.3, it felt like vaults with permawalls [and associated better loot] are more common than lesser vaults used to be, though I'm not sure that is true of 3.2. It is so bad that I now refer to 3.1+ as munchkinband.

If you think the old versions were balanced, play 3.0.9 instead of 3.2.0. If you just want to win, stick with 3.2.0.

The use-to-ID stuff is my baby. It hurts me to tell you to give it up after you praised it, but the player power boosts are totally out of control. I'm assuming the fact you started this thread means you care enough about balance that 3.0.9 would be better for you.

[Timo Pietilä]

I've got to disagree with Timo. I think he must have forgotten 3.0, much less 2.x.

Stuff equivalent to DSM on the floor early is common enough. Artifacts and egos now drop much more often. And many are boosted in power as well. Sure, Mim might have dropped 3 artifacts way back when, but it would not surprise me if that is 100 times as likely now as then.

Didn't think to compare that to 2.9.x. Yes you are correct, monster drops, while plentiful, were not nowhere close to 3.2 drops in power. Getting Mim drop three artifacts however is still lucky even for 3.2 standards.

There are now way more monsters with guarantee excellent drops and more monsters with guaranteed good. There is also way more monsters, ego-items and artifacts than there were in 2.9.x. Too many in fact IMO, and it started at 3.0 series with JLE changes. Nothing has been removed from game to make it more difficult, instead some things like tele-other and missile brands have been weakened.

[PowerDiver]

There are now way more monsters with guarantee excellent drops and more monsters with guaranteed good. There is also way more monsters, ego-items and artifacts than there were in 2.9.x. Too many in fact IMO, and it started at 3.0 series with JLE changes. Nothing has been removed from game to make it more difficult, instead some things like tele-other and missile brands have been weakened.

The changes to tele-other and missile brands are not that big a deal, more than compensated merely by the quiver alone.

The problem with too much overpowered stuff was out of control in 3.1, but the dev team doesn't care. It got worse with 3.2, and still worse with 3.3.

You were on a break so you probably did not see my last two ladder posts. Check out http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11576 and http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11535 for my take on the contrast between 3.0 and 3.3.

[Timo Pietilä]

The changes to tele-other and missile brands are not that big a deal, more than compensated merely by the quiver alone.

The problem with too much overpowered stuff was out of control in 3.1, but the dev team doesn't care. It got worse with 3.2, and still worse with 3.3.

You were on a break so you probably did not see my last two ladder posts. Check out http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11576 and http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=11535 for my take on the contrast between 3.0 and 3.3.

That's fast for 3.3 dev-version. Really fast. It feels a bit more frustrating for me, I haven't seen much vaults and very few good weapons and I was deeper than 4000' for around 20 visits before finding my first RoS. Very different game than yours (same class/race). No maze-levels, only around five LV and one GV which was very poor for loot and had Vecna & Charcaroth & Azriel on one open section so I didn't open it (V-shaped one).

I haven't been diving, and I find this a bit boring, just monsters to kill, nothing to explore. Caverns are mostly "get to some other level ASAP" unless there is something easy and rewarding to kill nearby. I usually just zap rod of recall as soon as I enter one of those unless there is stairs nearby (too bad there are no tele-level rods). I have two immunities as swaps (cold and fire), but all dragon pits have been multi-hued ones except one blue one, which immunity I naturally don't have. I cleared it anyway, and I got zilch useful items from it, not even healing potions. Total waste of time.

At least you didn't find those DSM of speed +9 I had in my recent winner. Then I removed those from my copy because that was absolutely insane item to have. In 3.3RC they apparently are back, but probably with less max pval.

[fizzix]

At least you didn't find those DSM of speed +9 I had in my recent winner. Then I removed those from my copy because that was absolutely insane item to have. In 3.3RC they apparently are back, but probably with less max pval.

Permanence is gone and I think speed is very rare. I mostly see 'craftsmanship' as an ego choice now, which is one without the -to hit penalties. I think that's good. Normal dragon armor does drop a lot earlier in the dungeons though. I think that might be a problem.

@Eddie: There's a problem in that any item that passes the special artifact roll (which is 1/10 for good or great items) but fails to make an artifact, is automatically boosted to great. I'm going to strip this out soon, and it should really cut down on the number of egos created.

I'm also playing a game where low level monsters stop appearing in the dungeon after a certain depth, and it's a much more challenging game. I'm kind of curious what you'd think about it, because it makes diving a lot more challenging.

[Timo Pietilä]

Permanence is gone and I think speed is very rare. I mostly see 'craftsmanship' as an ego choice now, which is one without the -to hit penalties.

There is something wrong in DSM drops/generation in general, because I find MHDSM and high-end DSM a lot more often than 3.0 or in 2.9.x. In them those used to be really rare, now they are everywhere. I have seen four MHDSM in my current game, few law, pseudo and green. I think all of them were ego-items.

I did see one speed-DSM but that had only +1 pval so it was useless for me. However that one it one too many. They should be like 1 in 1000 games -rare, not 1 in 1 game -rare.

[fizzix]

There is something wrong in DSM drops/generation in general, because I find MHDSM and high-end DSM a lot more often than 3.0 or in 2.9.x. In them those used to be really rare, now they are everywhere. I have seen four MHDSM in my current game, few law, pseudo and green. I think all of them were ego-items.

I'll look into it. I agree that something seems off.

[PowerDiver]

I'm also playing a game where low level monsters stop appearing in the dungeon after a certain depth, and it's a much more challenging game. I'm kind of curious what you'd think about it, because it makes diving a lot more challenging.

It's hard to say. I've got some ingrained habits and viewpoints that will be hard to unlearn. It would just be a lot of work for me to adjust my attitude even to be able to try to evaluate it.

Deep wimpy monsters can fill an important role, producing mushrooms for example. Removing them makes it even harder for a warrior to replace an electrified rod of trap location. My gut says it would be hard to get the details right after eliminating them.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'll look into it. I agree that something seems off.

I think it has something to do with ego-item generation logic, because normal DSM seem to be just as rare as they used to be. Something in ego-item generation makes them more likely than normal.

[Madoka]

I'm not a expert or anything, not having played Angband in awhile, but I'm getting ego weapons like they were on sale. The change in AC is messing me up some. I vaguely remember having a character with an AC of 140s in 2.7.9.v6 using a DSM. But now basic DSMs haev a low AC compared to some fo the other heavier armors. I assume the change makes the heaviers more useful and that a higher AC is now necessary?

Also, in the 3.2 readme, resistances to acid, etc, also protects stuff in your backpack. I love that idea. However, do resistances stack? Say I have 3 equipped items that have acid resistance. Does the the first grant 50% protection, the next another 10%, and the final an extra 5%?

[fizzix]

Deep wimpy monsters can fill an important role, producing mushrooms for example. Removing them makes it even harder for a warrior to replace an electrified rod of trap location. My gut says it would be hard to get the details right after eliminating them.

you're absolutely right about this. I started by removing DROP_GOOD from almost every normal monster, but I doubt that will be enough. One option is to allow for faster movement up and down the dungeon once you've descended to a certain depth. As in, when you recall, you can choose which depth you want to go to. That will help somewhat because you can easily get to whatever depth is most ideal for what you need.

[Magnate]

I'm not a expert or anything, not having played Angband in awhile, but I'm getting ego weapons like they were on sale. The change in AC is messing me up some. I vaguely remember having a character with an AC of 140s in 2.7.9.v6 using a DSM. But now basic DSMs haev a low AC compared to some fo the other heavier armors. I assume the change makes the heaviers more useful and that a higher AC is now necessary?

Also, in the 3.2 readme, resistances to acid, etc, also protects stuff in your backpack. I love that idea. However, do resistances stack? Say I have 3 equipped items that have acid resistance. Does the the first grant 50% protection, the next another 10%, and the final an extra 5%?

No, resists of the same sort don't stack, anywhere. (Temp resist foo (from a potion or spell) still stacks with permanent resist foo (from an item) though.)

[Derakon]

Also, "resistances protect items in your pack" is a bit misleading. With resistance, items can still be destroyed; however, the chance is somewhat less. Basically, if the resistance took damage from >30HP to <30HP, or from >60HP to <60HP, then your items are less likely to be destroyed.