Class bonuses

[fizzix]

Someone a while back posted the idea of eliminating class bonuses entirely and leaving only racial bonuses. The reasoning behind the suggestion was that class bonuses are needed when you employ a random roller. With an auto-roller or the current default point allocation system, there's no need to "pre-select" by giving class bonuses.

I'm becoming more of a fan of this as time goes on, but I expect a lot of pushback against this proposal.

[Zyphyr]

Such a plan would mostly eliminate the differnce between maximize and non-maximize mode.

[d_m]

Someone a while back posted the idea of eliminating class bonuses entirely and leaving only racial bonuses. The reasoning behind the suggestion was that class bonuses are needed when you employ a random roller. With an auto-roller or the current default point allocation system, there's no need to "pre-select" by giving class bonuses.

I'm becoming more of a fan of this as time goes on, but I expect a lot of pushback against this proposal.

I think this is fine as long as you take into account the average effect on warrior's blows. Right now warriors fighting ability + ability to get 6 blows is their only power (apart from rfear at 30) so losing a bunch of ability modifiers hurts them a lot.

[fizzix]

I think this is fine as long as you take into account the average effect on warrior's blows. Right now warriors fighting ability + ability to get 6 blows is their only power (apart from rfear at 30) so losing a bunch of ability modifiers hurts them a lot.

Sorry, let me be more clear. I meant the stat bonuses that are granted to classes. I would leave rfear for warriors, extra shots for rangers (even though I hate it) and everything else along those lines. I would just cut the stat changes.


@zephyr: I see that as an added feature!

[d_m]

Sorry, let me be more clear. I meant the stat bonuses that are granted to classes. I would leave rfear for warriors, extra shots for rangers (even though I hate it) and everything else along those lines. I would just cut the stat changes.

That's what I mean. Warriors in maximize mode benefit from having a big +STR, and they will lose that (and thus have a lower max value) under your system.

Maybe this is a good thing? But like I said, I think it makes the warrior weaker relative to the other classes.

[Derakon]

For reference, here's the stat boosts for each class currently (STR/INT/WIS/DEX/CON/CHA):

Warrior: +5 -2 -2 +2 +2 -1
Mage:    -5 +3 +0 +1 -2 +1
Priest:  -1 -3 +3 -1 +0 +1
Rogue:   +2 +1 -2 +3 +1 -1
Ranger:  +2 +2 +0 +1 +1 +1
Paladin: +3 -3 +1 +0 +2 +2

The class modifiers are generally much more significant than the racial modifiers. Not just that +5 STR that warriors get, but also that -5 STR that mages get!

Now, what I could get behind is normalizing the stat boosts here so that in each stat, the average across all classes is zero. Right now it's pretty high except for INT and WIS. That seems weird.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

I don't see that kind of leveling effect being logical, Derakon. Int is critical to 3 classes (arcane casters) but largely irrelevant to the others, while Wis is critical to 2 classes, but very secondary for the others. Str and Dex are important for the melee types, less so for the casters.

Since we don't have any kind of symmetry in how our classes use our stats, I don't think we can expect the 'symmetry' you're suggesting.

[fizzix]

That's what I mean. Warriors in maximize mode benefit from having a big +STR, and they will lose that (and thus have a lower max value) under your system.

Maybe this is a good thing? But like I said, I think it makes the warrior weaker relative to the other classes.

I'd be fine with making the racial bonuses/penalties a little higher/more severe. Currently, a hobbit warrior gets a net +3 to STR. This is less than a half-troll with just the racial bonus, and just one more than a dwarf. The place where this actually really hurts are mages and priests that desperately need every point of INT they can get. I think warriors will be just fine.

With the current setup every race/class combo is viable. Some might consider that good for gameplay, I don't. I think hobbit warriors should be a challenge combo, same with half-troll mages. Right now half-troll is probably the easiest choice of class for a mage, and that seems wrong.

Let's make this proposal concrete:

Current racial bonuses:

           STR   INT   WIS   DEX   CON   CHR
Human:     0     0     0     0     0     0
Half-elf:  0     1     -1    1     -1    1
Elf:       -1    2     -1    1     -2    1
Hobbit:    -2    2     1     3     2     1
Gnome:     -1    2     0     2     1     -2
Dwarf:     2     -3    2     -2    2     -3
Half-Orc:  2     -1    0     0     1     -4
Half-Troll:4     -4    -2   -4     3     -6
Dunadan:   1     2     2     2     3     2
High-elf:  1     3     -1    3     1     5
Kobold:    -1    -1    0     2     2     -2

New proposal:

           STR   INT   WIS   DEX   CON   CHR
Human:     0     0     0     0     0     0
Half-elf:  0     1     -1    1     -1    1
Elf:       -2    5     -3    5     -2    1
Hobbit:    -4    3     1     7     4     1
Gnome:     -5    7     0     3     1     -2
Dwarf:     5     -4    3     -3    3     -3
Half-Orc:  3     -3    -1     0     3     -4
Half-Troll:8     -6    -4   -4     3     -6
Dunadan:   1     2     2     2     3     2
High-elf:  1     5     -1    3     1     5
Kobold:    -3    -1    0     5     2     -2

that should stir the pot.

[Derakon]

New proposal:

           STR   INT   WIS   DEX   CON   CHR
Human:     0     0     0     0     0     0
Half-elf:  0     1     -1    1     -1    1
Elf:       -2    5     -3    5     -2    1
Hobbit:    -4    3     1     7     4     1
Gnome:     -5    7     0     3     1     -2
Dwarf:     5     -4    3     -3    3     -3
Half-Orc:  3     -3    -1     0     3     -4
Half-Troll:8     -6    -4   -4     3     -6
Dunadan:   1     2     2     2     3     2
High-elf:  1     5     -1    3     1     5
Kobold:    -3    -1    0     5     2     -2

that should stir the pot.

Uh, yeah. It should. Here's my takeaway:

Hobbits, gnomes: now worthless as anything except a pure-caster class (and probably pretty bad priests given their low WIS mods).
Half-trolls: now worthless as anything except for warriors.
Dwarves: now worthless as arcane casters and even more ridiculously awesome as priests.

I can understand the desire to have greater variation between race/class combinations and to have "challenge" combinations, but IMO this is excessively black and white. I'd rather see races and classes both get more non-stat-based modifiers, including both benefits and penalties. Right now the calculus for which race to play (given that you've chosen a class already, which is I expect how most people play, and which is backwards from the current birth system...) is pretty straightforward and it'd be nice to change that. For example, give half-trolls impaired MP regen instead of completely nuking their brains. Let dwarves get a bonus multiplier to AC and a penalty to energy/blow. And so on.

[fizzix]

I can understand the desire to have greater variation between race/class combinations and to have "challenge" combinations, but IMO this is excessively black and white. I'd rather see races and classes both get more non-stat-based modifiers, including both benefits and penalties. Right now the calculus for which race to play (given that you've chosen a class already, which is I expect how most people play, and which is backwards from the current birth system...) is pretty straightforward and it'd be nice to change that. For example, give half-trolls impaired MP regen instead of completely nuking their brains. Let dwarves get a bonus multiplier to AC and a penalty to energy/blow. And so on.

These are good and probably better suggestions. However, a dwarven priest under my system (remember, no class bonuses) is less awesome than in the current system.

[Nomad]

I'd like to see every race and class given its own special ability, the way that dwarves can sense treasure and gnomes auto-ID wands. Maybe mages auto-ID scrolls, priests can spot blessed and cursed items, rangers auto-ID ammo, etc. I think unique quirks like that do more to differentiate the possible combinations than any amount of stat modifiers.

[TJS]

I like mixing and matching different class and race combinations. I don't quite understand the motivation for making them all the same in this way?

[Nick]

Removing the experience penalty is something I could get behind...

[fizzix]

Removing the experience penalty is something I could get behind...

I would do the opposite and make it more severe. humph.

[Zyphyr]

The only effect that the XP penalties have is to alter final turncounts by forcing extra grinding. Nothing more.