Making the game harder, take five: stealth

[Timo Pietilä]

I think that people who don't think that stealth is too powerful has never played an extremely stealthy character, and this can be accomplished with almost and race/class combo. Super-stealth, which isn't that hard to come by, and doesn't prohibit you from being a killing machine also, is almost like cheating. Monsters just lie there sleeping as you walk through the dungeon and collect loot (except Z's).

For those rare cases I have managed to achieve that status I have enjoyed it. It didn't feel like cheating, just fun.

That is also pretty d*mn hard to achieve with Dwarf Priests BTW. It would require using non-optimal gear in many slots. You can achieve it, but it wont do you any good.

[jens]

Idea:
Modify Rogue to have 3 Stealth, but have +1 / 10 levels.

Today a rogue has 5 stealth to start with, and since no class increases stealth with clvl he has 5 at the end as well.

With 3 +1 he would have 3 to start with, and 8 at the end. This suggestion would only apply in the case of some nerfing to stealth eq. This would really differentiate rogues from the other classes. Any thoughts?

[Magnate]

Idea:
Modify Rogue to have 3 Stealth, but have +1 / 10 levels.

Today a rogue has 5 stealth to start with, and since no class increases stealth with clvl he has 5 at the end as well.

With 3 +1 he would have 3 to start with, and 8 at the end. This suggestion would only apply in the case of some nerfing to stealth eq. This would really differentiate rogues from the other classes. Any thoughts?

I have always disliked the inconsistency that some skills increase with clev while some (stealth, perception, searching) do not. I would support a move to per-level stealth increases for all classes, like for the other skills. (But maybe stealth increases should be race-dependent as well?)

[Napsterbater]

I have always disliked the inconsistency that some skills increase with clev while some (stealth, perception, searching) do not. I would support a move to per-level stealth increases for all classes, like for the other skills. (But maybe stealth increases should be race-dependent as well?)

I always liked the fact that in Angband some things increased with level and some things didn't. If you want more stats, find more stat pots. If you want better gear, find it. This means that no two games are the same, ability-wise.

If we go this way, why not just make everything level dependent?

[Magnate]

I always liked the fact that in Angband some things increased with level and some things didn't. If you want more stats, find more stat pots. If you want better gear, find it. This means that no two games are the same, ability-wise.

If we go this way, why not just make everything level dependent?

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games). The basic answer is to move more stuff to dependence on clev or dlev and reduce the dependence on objects. So for an extreme example, Ringil ought to be pretty nearly useless for a mage, as a melee weapon against tough melee opponents. Magi just shouldn't be meleeing balrogs, whatever gear they've found, and things which determine melee success (like to_hit, damage, criticals etc.) should all be quite heavily class- and level-dependent. (You'd still carry Ringil for the speed, obviously, because in this scenario the melee weapon slot is basically an extra utility slot for casters.)

Not that that's going to happen. But with the game the way it is now it's hard to argue against moving a few more things to be dependent on clev. (Like stat restoration, for example.)

[Napsterbater]

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games).

I've never won a game, and so even that one time I found BoS+7 at dlev 8 didn't result in a win. I like the randomness because that means that each game can be different, if I find a bunch of stealth, I can start diving faster, if I find a bunch of con, I stand and melee more monsters.

If the game started making everything clev dependent, then that means all of my characters at any given dlev will resemble one another. That would suck.

[Estie]

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games). The basic answer is to move more stuff to dependence on clev or dlev and reduce the dependence on objects. So for an extreme example, Ringil ought to be pretty nearly useless for a mage, as a melee weapon against tough melee opponents. Magi just shouldn't be meleeing balrogs, whatever gear they've found, and things which determine melee success (like to_hit, damage, criticals etc.) should all be quite heavily class- and level-dependent. (You'd still carry Ringil for the speed, obviously, because in this scenario the melee weapon slot is basically an extra utility slot for casters.)

Not that that's going to happen. But with the game the way it is now it's hard to argue against moving a few more things to be dependent on clev. (Like stat restoration, for example.)

Why on earth would you want to do that. Strategy ? Tactics ? Gameplay ? Sure, not bad. But the lucky find is the best.

[Nick]

Why not indeed. We've been mulling for a couple of years over how to make the game less dependent on gear, and thereby less prone to lucky finds (or unlucky games).

Because this is an adventure, not a schoolroom where you get a gold star for working hard. I know some people want to be able to grind out wins in a predictable fashion; if I wanted that sort of entertainment in my spare time, I'd get a job delivering junk mail.

[jens]

I have always disliked the inconsistency that some skills increase with clev while some (stealth, perception, searching) do not. I would support a move to per-level stealth increases for all classes, like for the other skills. (But maybe stealth increases should be race-dependent as well?)

Some incosistencies are good to have... It does not bother me in this case, but I guess most players assume that all skills work the same.

Letting all classes get per-level increase for stealth would not work with the current stealth system. Letting just one class get it would work, and would give a clearly different play experience.

[Derakon]

Jumping in on the bandwagon of "don't move more stuff to be clvl-dependent, please". In fact I'd almost rather do away with character levels altogether, and have the character's capabilities derive solely from stats and gear. Of course then there'd be no point whatsoever in monsters that don't drop loot or drain-experience attacks...my point is more that if I'm blocked from continuing because my clvl is too low (e.g. to learn a spell I need to be able to kill things) then the game comes to a screeching halt with nothing to do but grind. The same thing can happen with items (needing to grind until I randomly get a weapon that lets me take on the local monsters), but then at least it's random and I don't typically have a specific item I'm looking for, so it's more interesting.

Letting rogue stealth improve with level sounds interesting. That class needs something to help it stand out.

[Magnate]

Because this is an adventure, not a schoolroom where you get a gold star for working hard. I know some people want to be able to grind out wins in a predictable fashion; if I wanted that sort of entertainment in my spare time, I'd get a job delivering junk mail.

So the only reason FA still has clevs at all is because you're not imaginative enough to take them out, right ;-) After all, as Derakon says, there's no reason the game couldn't be entirely based on items and stats.

Apologies to all respondents if my previous post sounded like I or the devteam wanted to encourage grinding. That isn't the case. I was trying - unsuccessfully, obviously - to point out the opposite. The reason stat restoration was moved to level-up is because it took away a whole lot of tedious scumming for stat restore potions. Lots of players, at some point in the evolution of their playing style, footle around at a particular depth where they're comfortable in the hope that some good OOD item(s) will drop and enable them to continue. Obviously we don't want to take away the joy of a great find - but judiciously making certain things increase with clev (like, say, stealth) would shift the balance a little. As has been noted, it doesn't have to be the same for all classes (there's no particular reason why priests or magi would get stealthier as they level up).

EDIT: For example, some variants have stat increases on level-up. I don't recall anybody saying this has turned Un into a grind-fest. O gives special abilities, NPP gives a to-hit bonus for rogues with slings. There are lots of possibilities.

[Nick]

Apologies to all respondents

Accepted - just don't do it again

[Napsterbater]

Apologies to all respondents if my previous post sounded like I or the devteam wanted to encourage grinding. That isn't the case. I was trying - unsuccessfully, obviously - to point out the opposite. The reason stat restoration was moved to level-up is because it took away a whole lot of tedious scumming for stat restore potions.

Moving stat restore to level up is in my opinion an innovative move, a perfect way to make stat drain at deeper levels more terrifying and less terrifying at lower levels, all the while removing the necessity for 6 consumables and increasing the value of 6 abilities, the sustains.

Whereas tying stealth to clev removes one more way games can differ from each other. I don't think it's right to say that players will grind for stealth if they don't have it. Maybe some players who really value stealth will, but changing the game to accommodate those players isn't optimal. Some players scum until they can start a game with a particular item in the shops so they can start with, say an enchanted dagger or whip. If people want to do that, let them, it's better than changing the game so that the shop 4 guarantees a +4 whip.

Personally, I think stealth works as a mechanic which you have to pay to get. Items and artifacts with stealth should carry fewer total resists/sustains/buffs. In return, stealth probably should get a small boost. Stealthy players gain a significant advantage but have to play much more carefully. Like aggro works currently, only the opposite.

EDIT: For example, some variants have stat increases on level-up. I don't recall anybody saying this has turned Un into a grind-fest. O gives special abilities, NPP gives a to-hit bonus for rogues with slings. There are lots of possibilities.

The problem (to me anyway) is not grinding, but variability. Un doesn't have a problem maintaining variability of games. Vanilla, on the other hand, has much tighter, leaner gameplay. If you take away too much, it starts looking like Progress Quest. It's worth noting that even in Un, stealth only goes up by clev for one class.

In fact, I'd probably go so far as to switch to playing mostly variants if both stealth and stats went up linearly to clev. It just wouldn't be the same game.

[Antoine]

Letting rogue stealth improve with level sounds interesting. That class needs something to help it stand out.

It seems to work well in NPP.

A.

[UglySquirrell]

Hi everyone, new here. Thanks for the great game/site/community. The stealth issue was dealt with in. I believe it was hengband or entroband really well. You began with regular stealth values, but as you became more powerful yore stealth decreased. Eg. You were so
Baddass you couldn't hide you're presence. Probably would work well, my level 50 kobold priest doesn't wake up anything unless he wants to, ans it gets a little boring. Well time ta sleep. Cheers and thx again fo
r all you're hard work on this awesome game.