Armors "of speed"?

[Zikke]

So my borg just found a White Dragon Scale Mail of Speed (+9)... I know the egos were added to DSM, but is +speed intended to be in that list?

It is so nice that the bot decided to now remove Feanor's boots for Dal-i-thalion.

[fizzix]

So my borg just found a White Dragon Scale Mail of Speed (+9)... I know the egos were added to DSM, but is +speed intended to be in that list?

It is so nice that the bot decided to now remove Feanor's boots for Dal-i-thalion.

It is for the time being. It's possible that DSM of speed and permanence may be removed or made extremely rare because of their power.

[scud]

It's possible that DSM of speed and permanence may be removed

*creeps out of home and buries PDSM of Perm in the town square*

[Zikke]

*creeps out of home and buries PDSM of Perm in the town square*

O_o That blows my mind

[SSK]

It is for the time being. It's possible that DSM of speed and permanence may be removed or made extremely rare because of their power.

Yeah aren't these relatively new?

I find my best characters recently always get a DSM of permanence to use as they are better than most artifact armors. My current game I've used pseudo DSM of permanence and gold DSM of permanence (in fact I found two Gold DSM of permanence this game) and am still using it despite finding Celeborn, Isildur, Rohirrim among others, and am about to head down to Sauron and Morgy.

I think (as with most things people think are too powerful) that the best solution is not to remove them or take down their power, but simply to make them rarer. These are so powerful they should be in the rarity level of PDSM --I have played quite a number of games across many generations of the program but still have not found a single suit of PDSM of any flavor.

[Magnate]

Yeah aren't these relatively new?

I find my best characters recently always get a DSM of permanence to use as they are better than most artifact armors. My current game I've used pseudo DSM of permanence and gold DSM of permanence (in fact I found two Gold DSM of permanence this game) and am still using it despite finding Celeborn, Isildur, Rohirrim among others, and am about to head down to Sauron and Morgy.

I think (as with most things people think are too powerful) that the best solution is not to remove them or take down their power, but simply to make them rarer. These are so powerful they should be in the rarity level of PDSM --I have played quite a number of games across many generations of the program but still have not found a single suit of PDSM of any flavor.

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, they are new - they went in shortly before 3.2.0, and they are indeed too common. Myshkin and I are working on an improved stats generator which will make it much easier to see the "real" rarities of different ego items, so we will be able to fine-tune them much better. I share your view that things should be made rarer rather than removed altogether, but I suspect that Permanence will not continue to be available on DSMs, however rare it may be. Speed is IMO a different case but I have yet to convince others of that - maybe once I have the stats ...

If the stats work is not complete in time to inform 3.3, they will probably be removed to be on the safe side, and brought back more carefully later on.

There were also a number of excellent suggestions for new ego types, which I intend to work on post-3.3.

[Zikke]

Upon more game playing, I think that DSM of Speed isn't very unbalanced after all. The choice to wear armor of speed and forgo the usually large amount of resists found on body armor is a similar choice to wearing a Ring of Speed vs a =Damage or a Ring of Power. It might not need to be made much more rare after all (and finding a PDSM of Speed is already so amazingly rare).

[Derakon]

In my experience, any time I've found body armor that gives a speed bonus of +5 or more, I've worn it, even if it gives no other bonuses (randarts are periodically generated that are basically Body Armor of Speed, and they're almost always worth using). Speed is very powerful.

[Timo Pietilä]

Upon more game playing, I think that DSM of Speed isn't very unbalanced after all. The choice to wear armor of speed and forgo the usually large amount of resists found on body armor is a similar choice to wearing a Ring of Speed vs a =Damage or a Ring of Power. It might not need to be made much more rare after all (and finding a PDSM of Speed is already so amazingly rare).

Resists are overvalued. Basically what you need is basic4 + poison and swaps to cover rest of the important ones (confusion and blindness basically). And poison is arguable once you have over 800 HP. Even basic4 is questionable, for example I don't think there are any significant fire breathers left that don't show up in ESP, if you have resist fire as spell or swap to cover that you only need to play carefully to avoid death. Acid is halved by armor, so 800 is its max too.

(correction. Checked monster.txt and there is Bronze golem that breathes fire. It is one of the JLE additions that I didn't like. For cold and lightning breaths that applies, not to fire).

I have fought Morgoth with resistance holes in basic4. All you need to do to survive is remember which holes you have, and what monsters use those attacks.

[jens]

I guess I'm not as careful as you are... Every time I've decided to leave resistance holes I've eventually died from it.

[Magnate]

I guess I'm not as careful as you are... Every time I've decided to leave resistance holes I've eventually died from it.

If it makes you feel any better, the only people who argue that resistances are overrated are very very experienced and very very skilled players. It may be true for them, but the rest of us tend to have similar experiences to yours.

That doesn't mean that DSM of Speed will survive though. I'd like to just make it ultra-rare, but I'll need the statistics to convince people of that ...

[jens]

If it makes you feel any better, the only people who argue that resistances are overrated are very very experienced and very very skilled players. It may be true for them, but the rest of us tend to have similar experiences to yours.

Reading accounts of some players usually playing 15 min per session hints at what I could do to increase my survivability, but 15 min sessions is not my thing ;-)

That doesn't mean that DSM of Speed will survive though. I'd like to just make it ultra-rare, but I'll need the statistics to convince people of that ...

As Zikke said, I don't find them unbalanced. I like to look at them, but then I choose something with more recistances instead... On the other hand I think the game drops too much DSM, and way too many of them are ego. Also I don't really think that 'of speed' fits thematically on DSM...

[Magnate]

As Zikke said, I don't find them unbalanced. I like to look at them, but then I choose something with more recistances instead... On the other hand I think the game drops too much DSM, and way too many of them are ego. Also I don't really think that 'of speed' fits thematically on DSM...

Well, there are three different issues there. Too much DSM is not a widely-reported problem, but may be the case. Soon there will be stats which can verify it. Too many DSMs being egos is very well known but I'm not sure if it can be fixed easily - I'm hoping to do some work on ego generation for 3.4 but I haven't thought of a quick fix in the meantime. Speed not being in-theme is debatable - you've never seen any fast dragons?

But like I said, I fully expect takkaria to want it removed altogether (along with Permanence). This may mean that ego DSMs are removed for 3.3 and return in 3.4.

[jens]

Reducing the commonality of DSM's will reduce the commonality of Ego DSM's...

[Magnate]

Reducing the commonality of DSM's will reduce the commonality of Ego DSM's...

True, but I think the problem is more subtle than that, as not many people have reported there being too many DSMs. Compare them with swords: there are plenty of swords dropped (about the right number, maybe) and not many of them are egos (again, perhaps it's about right, for the sake of example). With DSMs there seems to be a far higher proportion turning into egos. I don't actually understand why this would be, so it's hard to fix. In the meantime I'm working on the stats collection, so I can see the impact of any changes I make before people complain that they weren't tested properly!